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The New Atavachron Digest 12/96
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 20:56:48 -0500
From: owner-atavachron@jabular.webster.com
Apparently-To: atavachron-outgoing@jabular.webster.com
To: JEFF@ADDIMENSION.COM
The New Atavachron Digest 96/12/03
Sender: owner-atavachron@webster.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Jeff Preston
----------
From: "Gordon Currie"
Subject: Carvin demo - Santa Ana (long)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:22:46 -0800
Thanks to this mailing list, I read about the in-store demos
of the Carvin Allan Holdsworth guitar and found that I would be
in So Cal for an AES convention during the weekend of Nov 9th.
I live in the Seattle area, so it is *well worth my time* to take
any opportunity to hear Allan play.
As someone posted before, the demos take place in an
air-conditioned upstairs listening room. This was especially
appreciated as the temperature had broken 100 F that
afternoon. 70-80 folks showed up, including a few Atavachron
subscribers.
Allan spent a lot of time graciously answering questions about
his career, and explaining the thoughts behind the design of
the guitar (ostensibly the reason we were all there). The crowd
ranged from fans familiar with everything he has ever done to
a couple of folks who were only familiar with his work with
Level 42 (!).
The body contains hollow chambers that are designed to
increase sustain and dynamics. Allan explained that
while using distortion/overdrive to get a more sustaining
sound, you also compress the dynamics (a pitfall I'm
sure many of us have experienced). My impression
was that the guitar did seem to "speak" a bit more
than other guitars I've heard Allan play.
Allan said he used to play a Gibson 335 in Tempest
and he has always loved the resonant sound of semi-
hollow guitars.
The neck is a set-in (glued) style joint. Allan was asked why
he didn't go for a neck-thru-body design. He explained that
he felt the neck-thru style can create a secondary resonance
to the primary tone-producing system of the nut+strings+bridge.
He pointed out that acoustic guitars work this way (not quite,
the top is critical to the tone on acoustics).
The neck is alder with an ebony (yes!) fingerboard. It is fairly
wide, which some will love (like me) and others will not.
Allan pointed out that the pickup was custom-designed. He
believes that many pickups are made with the winding too
tight, which negatively affects the sound. There is an option
to get a second pickup as a concession to those who need
that type of tonal variation.
The stock guitar comes with an alder top which Allan usually
prefers, but he was also playing a maple-capped guitar which
he was surprised to like very much.
Overall, it was apparent that he has thought (and tinkered)
for decades on *every minute aspect* of a guitar that could
possibly affect it's tone and playability.
He played along with some rough demos to showcase
the sound of the guitars. His setup included two Mesa
Boogie amps (clean and overdrive) with some effects,
the Harness, and 3 volume pedals to control the blend
of clean and overdrive. The volume was moderate -
much clearer than at any show - and easy to perceive
nuances and subtleties. It was like sitting in his living
room or studio and listening in - very intimate.
On one song, he used the Roland VG-8 processor.
He got a gorgeous tone! Interestingly, his approach
changed slightly to sound reminiscent of his approach
to the SynthAxe. I am not sure how aware of this he
was, but it was fascinating to hear. (I am a big fan
of his use of the SynthAxe.)
The tones he was able to get were endlessly changing
and subtly shaded. One new technique he was playing
with was to blend the clean and overdrive sounds and
change the mix as he progressed in the tune. Cool!
He was reading from some charts. When asked, he said
that he doesn't read music, but he has his own form of
notation. I took a look at it and it looks like jazz chord
charts with some extra symbols to show harmonic
movement.
Allan said that he was putting together a new band.
Everyone wanted to know who was in it, but all he
would say is that it was musicians living in California.
The will be playing a show in January at NAMM, and
then possibly some other dates or a tour (???). (Luckily,
I will be at NAMM on business - yesssss!)
It was over all too soon. I had to leave so I didn't get a
chance to talk with Allan or play the guitar. I will check
out the guitar very seriously at NAMM. It sounds as
he has designed a guitar with many of the qualities I
have been looking for (hollow body, flat fingerboard,
wide neck).
I apologize for the length of the post. I hope that some of
you get something from it. I didn't even touch upon Allan's
sense of humor and his great respect for musicians of
all types (Gordon Beck: a "ferocious ale pounder").
All in all, a well-spent afternoon.
...........................
Gordon Currie
Audio Designer/Composer
gordoncurrie@accessone.com
...........................
----------
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:05:04 -0600
From: Tony Hubert
Subject: No Need to Hum
>So much for today. Sorry for being long-winded, I just felt an urge to
>spit out my venom because I'm into music, not exercises in the weirdest
>harmonic complexity possible.
>Rog the frog
>Guitar player (well, sort of)
Anton Webern and Stravinsky were into music. They were also into finding
weird harmonic complexities. I'm always amused by the critique that jazz
isn't concerned about melody. I personally don't require that the music I
listen to be "hummable" five minutes later. There's plenty of that kind of
formulaic slop on mainstream radio. I like when an artist has the chops and
breadth to explode a tune and explore it to it's nth degree. Holdsworth
does this. When I heard him live I was amazed at how he "maps out" a solo;
he begins with, dare I say, the main "melody" and slowly but surely
splinters it into all kinds of avenues, taking the "tune" where it hadn't
gone before. People have mentioned Coltrane--well 'trane wasn't into
standing still. He was as avant garde and abstract as they come when he
wanted to be.
Holdsworth is able to kind of synthesize "consonance" and "dissonance" very
well, I think, kind of expressing the struggle between chaos and order, the
tension between being organized and totally falling apart. And hey,
sometimes it doesn't "work." But that's what happens when an artist takes
risks.
I've learned, too, that what for one person might be abstract is to another
concrete. I've a friend who thinks Bartok is just "out there," while I find
him conventional, compared to Schoenberg or Penderecki.
----------
From: MrBERWELL@aol.com
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 20:55:39 -0500
Subject: no subject
> From: KRosser414@aol.com
> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 11:05:37 -0500
> Subject: Re: No Subject
>
> Say what? Which harmonic constraints? When Holdsworth first came on the
> scene in the mid-70's he was playing and writing modal vamps like everyone
> else in electric jazz those days. Since then I haven't heard him
"liberate"
> anything. Educate me: on which track does he liberate a harmonic
> constraint?
WHAT? I could list many tunes, but it would be pointless. You just dont
hear it, *but it's there!! Allan was pushing harmonic constraints in 1969,
and he pushes even moreso today.
> Don't get me wrong - I'm a fan, or else I wouldn't be here, but a jazz
> innovator he ain't. You take Holdsorth out of jazz history and it pretty
> much stays the same.
"Jazz History"? What is that?! Are you referring to a few chapters in some
school text book? Allan is just not a very well know musician, and he may be
all but forgotten in 100 years, but that means NOTHING in regard to what he
has done as a musician.
> I don't consider Holdsworth a lazy musician, but I do think he comes from
and
> follows more of a rock aesthetic than a jazz aesthetic, although he's
> obviously jazz-influenced.
Yo, Ken, check out these things they sell at most drug stores- they're called
Q-TIPS, and they'll only set you back $1.99!!
> From: Bruce Bryant
> Subject: NTS and such.
> when I noticed that a clearly inferior version of "Floppy Hat" was used on
> the CD release. Had I known then what I know now, I would never
> have purchased it. I feel like I ripped him off...
Hey! I'm surprised sombodey else noticed that! Dont feel bad, little
ignorrant me, bought the cd too. :)
> Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 02:38:03 -0500
> From: Jens Snoop-Doggy-Johansson
> Subject: Stuff
Hey, Jens-
I was just curious about one small aspect of Heavy Machinery. It's titled
under "Johansson, Johansson, and Holdsworth"... I was wondering if Allan was
aware of that. He's been known not to like seeing his name in the same size
print as the artists' record he is appearing on.. I mean, the tunes were all
composed by you and Anders, and he just merely (right..) layed down some
solos... just curious. And a killer album BTW!!!
> From: king
> Subject: I resign
>
> As great a devotee to Alan Holdsworth as I am and have been since the
> UK days, I'm going to have to give up trying to make sense out of this
> little "conference". There is so much arrogance, testosterone,
> ignorance, etc., flying around here that it's tremendously difficult to
....
Well, you know, to understand this type of music, you just need to have a
certain peice of gristle swinging between your legs!!!
> Take heart, guys, I DID hang in there for 2 years+ before I called
> it quits. Just remember this note the next time you hear some of
> those statistics about the low percentage of women you find surfing
> the net.
Hey honey, dont let a little thing like a statistic worry you! It sure wont
worry me!!!!!! :) :)
A fine example of the stereotypical whining, crying, fleeing woman-!!
(I miss her already...)
Have a great day everybody! :)
Mrberwell@aol.com
----------
From: "Marc Simons"
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:16:54 +0100
KRosser414@aol.com wrote:
>I want to clarify that what I said was the guitar was obviously well-made
but
>the neck was not to my taste. Maybe I should have been more specific
about
>liking low frets myself - anyway, a few people posted off list to ask for
>specifics and I did detail what I found personally uncomfortable about the
>neck, as well as many of the things I did like about it. The problem here
is
>that the opportunities for many to go and try one out first are pretty
>scarce, so I was just trying to share a little subjective judgement. If a
>player does like fat necks and high frets, it would be hard for me to
imagine
>a better sounding, more comfortable and more affordable guitar.
When your really like the guitar, and not the high up frets? You can
refrette'm!
I play some Bass myself, and refretting is not that expensive.
When you like the basics of the guitar, one of your 'don't likems' is taken
away by this hint, I guess?
**************************************************************
Jabba the Hut says: Oh Shouda!!!!! msimons@IAEhv.nl
----------
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:18:17 GMT
From: "Bas van der Heijden"
Subject: NTS and JMcLaughlin in November JazzJournal International
In the November issue of the British Jazz Journal there is a review of NTS by
Mark Gilbert who is also responsible for an interview with J. McLaughlin.
Digest ago some other guitarists were quoted with respect to Holdsworth. In
this interview JM is very positive about AH.
The review:
'Those who recall the days of legend in London in the seventies when Holdsworth
Britain's other great jazz export (McLaughlin makes the pair), would blow up an
impossible storm in straightahead and free settings in The Plough at Stockwell
and The 100 Club will relish the appearance of this new, landmark session.
After a long series of CDs in which his soloing was subordinated to complex and
often baffling composition, Holdsworth here stands centre stage as a soloist
over seven standards and two Beck originals, all of them swinging. [!! my
exclamation, BvdH]
As in other contexts where he has been able to solo 'in a clearing' Holdsworth
once again astonishes, building magnificent improvised edifices, rich in
cunning perspectives and decorative embellishment. The generous solo space
allows him to develop a climatic intensity rarely found in his more composed
works: even as one swirling torrent of notes blows itself out, another, this
time with the force of a tornado, supplants it.
Holdsworth is well teamed with his old colleague, the British pianist Gordon
Beck, and with bass and drums more commonly associated with Holdsworth's
Californian guitarist Scott Henderson, but deftly justifies the top billing,
and turns this pretty well into the album many of his admirers will have
dreamed of for the past 20 years or so. the balance between guitar and Synthaxe
is just right too, with all solos on guitar and the synth controller used only
for backgrounds. None too soon indeed.'
--------------------0------------------------
This a very positive review. And Jazz Journal International is a JAzz magazine.
Some quotes from the interview :
MG: Do you have some favourite guitarists ?
JM: I've got two-I mean Scofield and Pat Metheny...
[Then JM said something about the record they made together. JM was
disappointed in that one]. But it doesn't lessen my admiration of either of
them. At the same time, when I hear someone like Allan Holdsworth-and of course
he doesn't play his solos at all in the same manner- it's very interesting, and
his chordal thing is just killing. It' is killing, and the sound he gets. I
went to see him a couple of years ago an I went backstage and I said 'If I knew
what you were doing I would stealall of it, cause I have no idea what you are
doing'. You know Allan, he just blew it off in his way. He is such a sweet
person, but this guy is amazing. Frank Gambale also.....
[Later in the interview techniques and rhythmical possibilities and stacato vs.
legato technique were discussed.]
JM: Allan is absolutely phenomenal, but I wouldn't want to play in that way
because I'd miss the impact, where I'm able to directly interact with the
drummer, for example. But that's my way, that's the only way I can go, I can't
against my nature. I have a lot of fun interacting directly with the drummer.
MG:What is it about Yorkshire that has caused it to produce two of the world's
most innovative guitar players of the last 30 year?
JM:Eh, I don't know lad.
--------0-----------
The statements of JM for me seem to be very honestly put, he did'nt say those
things about allan just because he is a colleague. A month ago on the Belgian
television there was a live concert of Aldimeola, JM and Paco de Lucia, well
that was really great. I haven't heard the album yet, but the tune on JMs the
Promise is killing.
Bas van der Heijden (b.heijden@organon.akzonobel.nl)
----------
Date: 27 Nov 96 21:33:19 EST
From: Tony Accurso <74654.3011@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Re: The Juice Extractor
I was in my local used guitar store and saw a Rocktron rack item called "The
Juice Extractor". Apparently it is a 'signature series' rack effect signed by
Allan Holdsworth on the front of it. The owner of the store does not have the
manual and has no idea of what it does. It has knob controls on the front that
are similar to a parametric(?) eq, and on the back there are 6 outputs and 1 amp
input. Before I try to contact Rocktron, does anybody know what this effect
does and how to use it? Thanks.
Tony
----------
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 07:41:27 -0500
To: owner-atavachron@webster.com
From: owner-atavachron@webster.com
Subject: BOUNCE atavachron@webster.com: Approval required
>From jeff@addimension.com Mon Dec 2 07:41:26 1996
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Message-Id: <199612021235.AA064780146@ithp2.it.oracle.com>
Date: 02 Dec 96 13:28:53 +0100
From: "Pier Francesco MARINI - RDBMS Tech Support"
To: atavachron@webster.com
Subject: DRUMMER GARY NOVAK AVAILABLE IN L.A. AREA
X-Orcl-Priority: High
Reply-To: pmarini@it.oracle.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Dear Allan and all Atavachronians,
if you are interested in a great drummer take in consideration Mr. Gary Novak
(if you listen to his working on Chick Corea's ELEKTRIC BAND II and Time Warp
you will find he is similar to Vinnie, Elvin Jones and Tony Williams).
I have spoken with him few weeks ago (he was in Rome with Bob Berg 4tet).
He was very sad because there is no very interesting works in L.A. (on new
Bob Berg album on drums chair will be Dennis Chambers...), and he was thinking
to change location. I am surprised that such a drummer has difficulties (I know
also which difficulties has SUCH A GUITARIST like you...), it seems that nobody
wants him... Very strange! So I'd like to put under your attention (you and
everybody on the Web, of course!) this great name (he deserves it!).
What about some gigs with him and Gary? It would be great!
When you will be in Rome again? I know it's very difficult to put together
all the members of the band. Come here also as "unplugged", if you can!!!
All the Best,
______ ______
_ / ___/
___/ __/
__/ier __/rancesco
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pier Francesco MARINI
CUSTOMER SUPPORT MANAGER
RDBMS Group
ORACLE ITALIA S.p.A. Via Laurentina 756 - 00143 ROMA
Voice: +39-6-50261320 Paper: +39-6-5018553
Email: pmarini@it.oracle.com
Web: http://www.uk.oracle.com/europe/italy/support/supintro.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Oracle et Laboracle" (anonymous latin)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
________ _____ ______ ____ __ _____
__ / _ / __ / ___/ / ___/
/ / /__/ /_ / / / __/
______/__/ _|__/ __/____/ ____/____/
----------
End of Atavachron Digest
Send postings to: atavachron@webster.com
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Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 19:09:46 -0500
From: owner-atavachron@jabular.webster.com
Apparently-To: atavachron-outgoing@jabular.webster.com
To: JEFF@ADDIMENSION.COM
The New Atavachron Digest 96/12/16
Sender: owner-atavachron@webster.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Jeff Preston
----------
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 01:06:23 -0500 (EST)
From: jseltzer@wardenclyffe.com (Captain Liberal)
Subject: Re: The Juice Extractor
>Date: 27 Nov 96 21:33:19 EST
>From: Tony Accurso <74654.3011@CompuServe.COM>
>Subject: Re: The Juice Extractor
>
>I was in my local used guitar store and saw a Rocktron rack item called "The
>Juice Extractor". Apparently it is a 'signature series' rack effect signed by
>Allan Holdsworth on the front of it. The owner of the store does not have the
>manual and has no idea of what it does. It has knob controls on the front that
>are similar to a parametric(?) eq, and on the back there are 6 outputs and
1 amp
>input. Before I try to contact Rocktron, does anybody know what this effect
>does and how to use it? Thanks.
> Tony
The juice extractor was a device that is somewhat akin to the Harness. Both
are amplifier output to line level converters. The juice extractor
incorporated a parametric eq - unlike the Harness. A good idea in theory,
it turned out to be not well implemented. While it did provide "Harnessing"
and it did provide the parametric eq (an eq of some kind is a must when
using a Harness) the eq was second rate. I imagine it was in the interest
of cost that this was done. I seem to recall the thing costing about $449
US when released. (For comparison sake, a good, single channel parametric
eq like the TC Electronics 1140HS costs about $700 US.)
The six outputs on the back are all wired to the same output from the
parametric eq. This allows you to feed up to six effects chains prior to
feeding a mixer. The amp input, obviously, receives the speaker output from
an amplifier (preferably tube...). The eq is placed after the "Harnessing"
occurs allowing you to shape the frequency curve prior to routing through
effects devices (or directly to a power amp).
Basically, in order to use this device, you need, at a minimum: a
(preferably) tube amp (like a Marshall, Mesa Boogie, or whatever), the Juice
Extractor, a Power Amp, and a speaker cabinet. Effects devices and a mixer
can be placed between the Juice Extractor and the power amp if desired.
Hope this helps.
Jeff Seltzer (aka Captain Liberal)
-------------------------------------------------
The opinions voiced herein DO represent the views
of the management of Wardenclyffe Technology Ltd.
-------------------------------------------------
----------
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 11:02:14 +0100
From: henrik.lundberg@gnesta.mail.telia.com (Henrik Lundberg)
Subject: Gary Novak for president....
>"Pier Francesco MARINI - RDBMS Tech Support"
wrote:
>Dear Allan and all Atavachronians,
>if you are interested in a great drummer take in consideration Mr. Gary Novak
>(if you listen to his working on Chick Corea's ELEKTRIC BAND II and Time Warp
>you will find he is similar to Vinnie, Elvin Jones and Tony Williams).
Yes!, Gary Novak has turned into my favourite amongst drummers. I saw him in
Stockholm with the mentioned Bob Berg 4tet. And it was so great. I can't believe
that he has problem to get jobs, its incredible!
Yeah! he has Vinnies chops and swings like Elvin and Tony. The guy is
fantastisc!
>What about some gigs with him and Gary? It would be great!
Yes!, I suggested this too, when i posted my thoughts about the "None too
soon"-cd.
(All we can do is pray.. :-) )
Best Regards!
- Henrik Lundberg
----------
From: KRosser414@aol.com
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 11:24:15 -0500
Subject: Re: No Subject
>> Say what? Which harmonic constraints? When Holdsworth first came on the
>> scene in the mid-70's he was playing and writing modal vamps like
everyone
>> else in electric jazz those days. Since then I haven't heard him
>"liberate"
>> anything. Educate me: on which track does he liberate a harmonic
>> constraint?
>
>WHAT? I could list many tunes, but it would be pointless. You just dont
>hear it, *but it's there!! Allan was pushing harmonic constraints in 1969,
>and he pushes even moreso today.
Again, what harmonic constraints in jazz existed in 1969, even? This is a
full ten years after Ornette Coleman & Cecil Taylor's free jazz, Miles'
modality, Coltrane's polytonality, etc, etc, etc. My point is not that Allan
doesn't use a very sophisticated approach to harmony, of course he does. My
point is that in jazz in 1969, the road to 'harmonic liberation' was already
paved wide open. There was nothing to 'liberate' at that point. Listen to
Henry Threadgill now - there still isn't. Those playing today in the
"constraints" of ii-V-I's do so out of choice, not because it's demanded or
even common practice at this point. Just as you can't assume someone playing
a diatonic scale is doing so not because he knows no other scale, it's quite
possible and most likely because that's what suits his needs. There are no
real constraints anymore, the choices are wide open and have been for a long,
long time.
>> Don't get me wrong - I'm a fan, or else I wouldn't be here, but a jazz
>> innovator he ain't. You take Holdsorth out of jazz history and it pretty
>> much stays the same.
>
>"Jazz History"? What is that?! Are you referring to a few chapters in
some
>school text book? Allan is just not a very well know musician, and he may
be
>all but forgotten in 100 years, but that means NOTHING in regard to what he
>has done as a musician.
Allan has done a lot as a musician, that's not even close to what I said. I
said he wasn't a jazz innovator. "Jazz history" has to do with the canon of
recorded works that follows the tradition from (roughly and vaguely) Louis
Arnstrong through bebop through Coltrane/Ornette/Cecil to fusion/jazz-rock,
etc, ECM and the neoclassicism of today. It has been academically documented
and such for years, but that's neither here nor there. There's a lot of room
for interpretation here, it's not an exact science. I think Allan's impact
as a so-called "fusion" player (I hate the term, personally) has been pretty
wide but will probably not reach much beyond that as jazz goes, whereas the
work of other "fusion" pioneers (McLaughlin, Metheny, Zawinul, Randy &
Michael Brecker) has to some extent. Allan's greatest revolutionary impact,
as I see it, has been in the broader spectrum of electric guitar playing,
rock playing especially. He has probably forever altered the conception of
modern rock guitar. I would certainly list him as one of the most innovative
guitarists of all, but I wouldn't consider him a jazz innovator.
So, fuck "Jazz History" then? Fine - I agree:-) I still wouldn't call him a
jazz innovator...
>> I don't consider Holdsworth a lazy musician, but I do think he comes from
>and>> follows more of a rock aesthetic than a jazz aesthetic, although he's
>> obviously jazz-influenced.
>
>Yo, Ken, check out these things they sell at most drug stores- they're
called
>Q-TIPS, and they'll only set you back $1.99!!
So what does this mean, critical discussion here is not allowed? Or is this
just a forum for sycophantic fans? I'd be happy to discuss this in detail,
but I wonder if I'm wasting my time...
Again, I'm trying to talk about a critical judgement here that is obviously
highly subjective and I'd be willing to discuss with anyone, but when I get
insults it seems like anything beyond "fuck you, Allan is God" is off-topic.
If I say someone isn't a jazz innovator, I'm not saying they suck, I'm
saying they're not a jazz innovator IN MY OPINION. Why jump to these sort of
conclusions? The problem is not with my ears, the problem is that we can't
talk critically about something we hear differently.
[ Moderator's note: Well, speaking of jumping to conclusions, let's
not make decisions about an entire forum based on *one* contributor's
opinions. :) In other words, a forum such as Atavachron is made up
of *hundreds* of individuals, of varying levels of articulation.
I would hope that you wouldn't use the broad brush to paint the entire
forum, simply because *one* person (or even a few) didn't understand
your line of reasoning -- or become defensive because of their
perceptions of it. This is not a forum for sycophants. Feel free to
ignore or take with a grain of salt those arguments which don't
address your points. Enough said. --JP ]
> > If a>player does like fat necks and high frets, it would be hard for me
to
>>imagine>a better sounding, more comfortable and more affordable guitar.
>When your really like the guitar, and not the high up frets? You can
>refrette'm!
>I play some Bass myself, and refretting is not that expensive.
>When you like the basics of the guitar, one of your 'don't likems' is taken
>away by this hint, I guess?
Again, I'm really puzzled by this apparent "if you don't like it or if you
can't do better, shut up" vibe. I do like a lot of things about the guitar,
and sure, I can buy one and customize it any way I want, but you can do that
with any guitar - doesn't that go without saying? I didn't say I'd never buy
one (actually, I may:-)), I said that as they are "off the rack" there are
some things I find uncomfortable about it, and those are undoubtedly some
things I would change. Allan's obviously put a lot of thought and expertise
into the guitar, but it may not be for everyone. I guess I was hoping to see
more discussion about how other players feel about the specifics.
Ken R
----------
From: Matooki@aol.com
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 21:49:32 -0500
Subject: Carvin Holdsworth Guitar
I received a Carvin "Holdsworth" model guitar a couple of weeks ago. I
ordered mine the first week that they offered them, and it took about 8
weeks. Mine has a stunning quilted maple top with a clear finish, matching
headstock and black hardware and dual humbuckers with a fixed bridge. I asked
for the neck to be a tung oil finish which was a good choice. I asked Carvin
to set it up with .009's instead of the .010's it usually comes with. With
case, CA sales tax and shipping it came to a little over $1200.00. Quite
frankly it's a hell of a bargain. The workmanship is flawless and the tone is
wonderful. The first thing I noticed was the tone of the guitar unplugged. It
was extremely resonant thanks to the internal hollow chambers. Plugged it
sounded very warm and very sustaining. Hard to describe the tone (at least
for me). It's definitely not a Strat nor a Les Paul. It's very unique, kinda
like Allan. The guitar is very light and comfortable. My only gripe is where
they (Carvin) place the top strap button. It's on the back of the guitar at
the neck joint. Great idea to hide it, but when I start playing high up on
the neck I can feel the strap against my hand. A better location might be on
the back side of the guitar on the top horn. I have a custom built Strat
style guitar that utilizes this location and it works and looks great. This
would be my only gripe though. Now to the neck. I personally love it. I'm
used to a wider thicker neck so this was even a little thinner than what I
now own on my other guitars. The frets are fine for me, but it would be
interesting to have them a little flatter and wider. The neck is a 20"
radius, very flat. Allan and Carvin have done a great job with this
instrument. This is truly a very high quality affordable instrument. It could
have been very easy to put Allans name on it and sell it for twice as much as
they do. This, from what I understand, is and will be a limited production
guitar, so check it out. I'm very happy, although I still don't sound quite
like Allan. Gee what a surprise!
Thanks,
Matooki@aol.com
----------
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 15:56:53 -0600
From: Tony Hubert
Subject: IOU daze
I'm currently spinning NTS in my car CD and enjoying it very much. It does
swing pretty hard, I must say. However as much as I like hearing Allan
Holdsworth do a Bill Evans cover (Pretty Early), part of me misses the
rawness of the IOU days. IOU had no synthaxes or synthesizers of any kind
(Gary Husband does a little dilletante piano on one tune), and in some ways
I prefer this to the heavily synth layered stuff AH has done over the last
eight years or so. Don't get me wrong--some of the chord progressions and
orchestrating on Metal Fatigue still give me chills; I am greatly
appreciative of most of his work; I guess I'm experiencing a general
"nostalgia" for the kind of austere and haunting quality I found with IOU.
Then again, I'm not a big fan of the synthaxe. I was thinking earlier when
listening to Very Early that I would have preferred a straight guitar as
opposed to the synthaxe doing the melody. the synthaxe sounds too much like
a casio machine or something, at least when doing solo lines...Just petty
gripes in an mainly Holdsworth friendly temperament.
Does anyone else really dig the IOU sound?
----------
From: "Kenneth M. Sailors"
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 12:40:05 +0000
Subject: A couple of thoughts
I bought Jon Luc-Ponty's "Enigmatic Ocean" many, many,many years ago.
Didn't know AH at the time. Wondered what that instrument was that i
was hearing on it...wasn't a violin, wasn't a keyboard, certainly
wasn't a guitar (wrong!). Some time later, a couple of years, I
guess, a friend of mine says I need to check out this guy Allan
Holdsworth - get the UK's "In The Dead of Night", said he. I did and
at Allan's first note I said "Hey, wait a second..." and pulled out
JLP's album. Then I knew. It was pretty much all over for me then.
Anyway, just my way of saying hello, I.m a big fan. Yadda Yadda Yadda.
I bought "IOU" at a _tiny_ shop on Clement St. in San Francisco in '81.
Says "Luna Crack" on the back.
One question. Is Allan Holdsworth a male phenomenon?
My wife certainly doesn't get it. We saw him live once, I've gone
without her since then with her blessing. Any thoughts on this?
One last thing: who cares if NTS is jazz or isn't jazz, is that or
isn't that? You like or you don't, you will or you won't. Don't get
all caught up in this labeling cr*p. It's *music*, Ok? Just enjoy it.
))||((
-(.)(.)-
| |
| \/ | Eugie!Baange
///\\\ "I'm just naturally crazy, baby!"
\__/
----------
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 1996 01:51:30 +0100
From: Elena Rigon
Subject: Lyrics
Hi to all Atavachrons!
I am very happy since it is now the first time I am sending a message to
the mailing list.
Does anybody know how I could get some of the following lyrics:
. All our yesterdays
. Against the clock
. The things you see
. Endomorph
Thanks a lot for whoever replies
Livio
----------
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 11:08:32 -0800
From: VERONIQUEL@gnn.com
Subject: Addition to Allan Holdsworth discography
Hi to all the folks at Atavachron,
I just found out about the Allan Holdsworth home page from the sleeve
notes of his latest CD "None to soon". By the way, it's a great album!
I noticed that Allan's 1980 collaboration album with Gordon Beck called
"The things you see" was sadly missing from the discography! In my
opinion, this acoustic album is much better than his second
collaboration with Gordon Beck called "With a heart in my song".
My lp version of "The things you see" is quite worn out by now and I
can't seem to find it.... However, I have the French CD (catalog number
JMS 048-2) of this album which was released in 1989 by Les Disques JMS.
This CD also includes tracks from Gordon Beck's 1979 album "Sunbird".
Allan played guitars on this last album. There is also a Canadian CD
(catalog number AGCD-615) of "The things you see" which was released in
1994 by Les Disques Avant-Garde. The Canadian version is better since it
includes all the tracks from Gordon Beck's "Sunbird".
Besides the Japanese version of "Wardenclyffe tower", I am unaware of
any other collaborations that Allan did with Gordon....
Best regards, Robert Phan.
----------
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 12:58:49 -0400
From: jmcgann@world.std.com (John McGann)
Subject: Just For the Curious
A quick but deep thanks to AH for his insights into his personal view of
chord/scale theory and voicings- this 'other angle' of looking at things is
tremendously helpful in helping me unlock sounds and get expanded voicings
away from the typical traditional guitar sounds.
Breaking away from being 'locked' into 3rds by seeing combinations of
notes, and building voicings intervallically, is a very logical approach.
This book/video is a very welcome addition to 'the literature' of extended
harmony; I hope more curious musicians will find out about it! Glad you are
willing to share your viewpoint.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
John McGann (jmcgann @ world.std.com)
Boston, Ma. USA
Custom Transcription Service /Technique Tips Plus...D.I.Y. Transcription,
Tips for Improvisers, Online Sheet Music and Tab, info for Dobro, Lap
Steel, Mandolin, Acoustic and Electric Guitars, Amps,Guitar Contests and
What to Do About Them, Private Lessons , and more...
http://world.std.com/~jmcgann
----------
End of Atavachron Digest
Send postings to: atavachron@webster.com
Send administrative requests to: atavachron-request@addimension.com
Web page: http://www.addimension.com/holdsworth/
Sponsored in part by Alchemy Records
http://www.musicpro.com/alchemy/
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 10:12:22 -0500
From: owner-atavachron@jabular.webster.com
Apparently-To: atavachron-outgoing@jabular.webster.com
To: JEFF@ADDIMENSION.COM
The New Atavachron Digest 96/12/22
Sender: owner-atavachron@webster.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Jeff Preston
----------
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 02:15:04 -0800
From: Francisco Pablo Espinoza Estrada
Subject: El Chileno de Atavachron. Reply to Ken.
Hail Holdsworthian Freakoids,
This is my first time in the Atavachron Cyberspace, and I'm still trying
to recover
from the shock !!! This is only comparable to being born with a third ear in
my forehead, being rejected and
humiliated by the whole world because of it, feeling lonely, miserable and
uncomprehended....and one day, being
invited to a surprise party, opening the host's house door and realizing
that not only him, but all his guests
have this huge, shining and hairy ear in their foreheads !!!!
My name is Francisco Espinoza (A.K.A. DESPERANCHO) , and I'm a 25 year
old Chilean
Chem. Ing. Student. Right now I'm just overwhelmed by Ara–ita's (Lil' Spid)
presence in the net ! And this
discussion forum is, as Cannonball would put it, SOMETHING ELSE !!
I have been suffering this strange phenomenon for nearly 11 years :
whenever I hear
Allan, I either cry (The 4.15 Bradford Executive, 54 Duncan Terrace), get
the chills (Questions, Distance VS.
Desire), drool (Countdown, City Nights) or play air guitar like an 11 year
old (Metal Fatigue, Letters of
Marque) !! I also have this weird feeling that Holdsworth's a dear friend,
even though I've never met him ?!?!
He has made me feel so good during all these years that I would love to give
him a big hug !!
I was one of those teenagers who came to know him by one of those 'Best in
my book' Van Halen ads. (Sorry ALLAN
!) I was really lucky to be introduced to his music by my best friend,
Chapitron. Eleven years have passed.
Now, I have all his (official) records, and thanks to him, I'm discovering
the inmense treasure that is fifties
and sixties JAAAAAZZZZZZ (which, by the way, isn't dead yet, but keeps
smelling funny !) . I also dig Brecker,
Weather Report, John Scofield (Sco Rules !) and this N.Y. overdriven bopper
called Wayne Krantz. And when I get
drunk I listen to Albert Collins (may the lord keep his soul chilled !).
Here goes the first ones of a long list of comments:
>I think Allan's impact
>as a so-called "fusion" player (I hate the term, personally) has been pretty
>wide but will probably not reach much beyond that as jazz goes, whereas the
>work of other "fusion" pioneers (McLaughlin, Metheny, Zawinul, Randy &
>Michael Brecker) has to some extent. Allan's greatest revolutionary impact,
>as I see it, has been in the broader spectrum of electric guitar playing,
>rock playing especially. He has probably forever altered the conception of
>modern rock guitar. I would certainly list him as one of the most innovative
>guitarists of all, but I wouldn't consider him a jazz innovator.
Ken's opinions are quite interesting, because innovation, in my opinion,
can come in
different ways. For example, McLaughlin, Metheny and Zawinul are all tone
innovators within jazz, whereas the
Brecker Bros.' innovation has more to do with merging funk, jazz and rock in
a different way (even though they
come quite close to Miles' turf sometimes !). If you listen to Mike
Brecker's playing with McCoy Tyner
(Infinity), he sounds like himself, amazingly beautiful, but in no way
innovative. You can hear the familiar
Trane and Bird phrases, along with his own ones, but no musical revolution
there. Now, imagine Holdsworth
playing in that setting ! Wouldn't that be nice ? The tone, alone, is
innovative. Nobody sounded like that
before him. Same with McLaughlin, Metheny and Zawinul. And like these, he
has a different approach, which makes
his music sound quite original, like he's assimilated the past but not in
the Marsalis way, but looking for his
own sound. I really think Allan's impact within the Jazzzzz community has
been diminished by the fact that he
plays loud distorted guitar with few references to the bop idiom. Few people
realize how hard it is to make a
distorted guitar sound beautiful. There's true innovation there, along with
hard work ! On the other hand, Ken
is right on the money when he states his influence in modern rock guitar.
Van Halen's filtering of Allan's
playing is still felt in the bastard-sons-of-80's-hard-rock's music. I've
heard those symmetrical licks that AH
played in U.K. over Pantera's detuned crunch riffs. I've heard Chris Poland,
a great prog-thrasher who used to
play with Megadeth doing more than fine AH influenced playing, perhaps the
finest I've heard in a rock context.
And some weeks ago I laughed my ass off with the best imitation of Allan's
tone (solo and rhythm) on record,
Fredrik Thordendal of the Swedish metal band Meshuggah ('Destroy Erase
Improve' on Relapse Records).
Last, but not least, if you liked the Joe Henderson tunes Allan played on
NTS ('Inner
Urge' & 'Isotope'), check out the new versions in Joe's new Big Band
recording on Verve. It's absolutely
exhilarating ! The arrangements and playing kick first rate ass !! (y no es
chiste)
In the future, I promise to keep my messages short. Sorry, I couldn't
resist !!
Hoping the best for all of you ! Bye-bye ! Au-Revoir ! Chaol’n Bomb’n !
FRANCISCO
----------
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 05:23:00 -0500
From: Jens Johansson
Subject: Re:
At 19:09 12/16/1996 -0500, owner-atavachron@jabular.webster.com wrote:
> From: KRosser414@aol.com
> From: MrBERWELL@aol.com
An interesting discussion!
> Again, what harmonic constraints in jazz existed in 1969, even? This is a
> full ten years after Ornette Coleman & Cecil Taylor's free jazz, Miles'
> modality, Coltrane's polytonality, etc, etc, etc.
Or some six decades after Schoenberg pulled the rug out from under 'western
harmonic constraints'..
> There are no
> real constraints anymore, the choices are wide open and have been for a long,
> long time.
I agree here.
> Allan is just not a very well know musician, and he may
> be all but forgotten in 100 years,
If I'd hazard to guess whether Wynton Marsalis or Allan Holdsworth will be
remembered a hundred years from now as one of the great innovators of the
late 20th century.. hmmm.... well... sorry, Wynton! :)
> "Jazz history" has to do with the canon of
> recorded works that follows the tradition from (roughly and vaguely) Louis
> Arnstrong through bebop through Coltrane/Ornette/Cecil to fusion/jazz-rock,
> etc, ECM and the neoclassicism of today. It has been academically documented
> and such for years, but that's neither here nor there. [...]
> So, fuck "Jazz History" then? Fine - I agree:-)
Me too!
> I still wouldn't call him a jazz innovator...
Agreed. Thank God he didn't choose to "innovate Jazz"! ;)
I think you guys basically agree, it's just the dreaded problem of in which
box to place music. "What is Jazz? -- If you have to ask, you'll never know."
Jens. (offline) (http://www.panix.com/~jens/)
----------
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 08:22:39 -0800
From: "Kevin G. Walker"
Subject: the IOU sound?
> Then again, I'm not a big fan of the synthaxe. I was thinking earlier when
> listening to Very Early that I would have preferred a straight guitar as
> opposed to the synthaxe doing the melody. the synthaxe sounds too much like
> a casio machine or something, at least when doing solo lines...Just petty
> gripes in an mainly Holdsworth friendly temperament.
>
> Does anyone else really dig the IOU sound?
I agree. IOU is still my favorite AH album. Road Games is wonderful too (I
wish it was available on CD). I was happy when Secrets at least had more
straight guitar on it. Don't get me wrong, I like sythesizers and the
synthaxe. I don't like a lot of the synth patches that Allan uses, though I
like some of them. I don't feel that his use of synthesizers was as innovative
as his use of the guitar. Also, the synthaxe is a MIDI controller and doesn't
make any "sound."
Anyway, I like the IOU sound the best. I liked Allan's earlier stuff (I was
completely blown away when I heard "In the Dead of Night" the first time) but
it was IOU that did it for me. I had never heard anyone comp (play chord
changes for non-musicians) like Allan. In fact, I find his use of chords as
interesting (or more interesting) than his solos.
--
Kevin G. Walker
kg_walker@pnl.gov
(509) 375-6864 (work)
----------
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 08:29:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Cyndy
Subject: Re: various Atavachron comments
Hey, 'guys' :) :
>Tony Hubert says:
>part of me misses the rawness of the IOU days. IOU had no synthaxes or
synthesizers of any kind
>and in some ways I prefer this to the heavily synth layered stuff
>Then again, I'm not a big fan of the synthaxe.
>Does anyone else really dig the IOU sound?
Well, yeah. I actually *like* the syntheaxe (esp on _Sand_) sound, myself.
But I know what you are saying about IOU being 'raw'. But I guess what I
find so appealing about IOU is the ... way the songs are put together (is
'raw'), regardless (to some extent) of what is actually executing the music.
IOU actually took a little time to grow on me (unlike Metal Fatigue, Atavachron,
Secrets, etc, which I took to right away. :) ), but now it's one (can't
pick just one) of my favorite Holdsworth albums.
"Kenneth M. Sailors" almost immediately aftterwards, said:
>I bought Jon Luc-Ponty's "Enigmatic Ocean" many, many,many years ago.
>Didn't know AH at the time. Wondered what that instrument was that i
>was hearing on it...wasn't a violin, wasn't a keyboard, certainly
>wasn't a guitar (wrong!). Some time later, a couple of years, I
>guess, a friend of mine says I need to check out this guy Allan
>Holdsworth>- get the UK's "In The Dead of Night", said he. I did and
>>at Allan's first note I said "Hey, wait a second..."
WOW! That happened to you, too?? :) I got into JLP in, oh, about
1985 (o.k. a little late :) ), and had the same thought about Enigmatic
Oceans ('what IS that??')... a few years later, my brother tapes
Metal Fatigue, Road Games, and Atavachron for me. Took me a entire listen,
but I eventually made the connection, too :)
>I bought "IOU" at a _tiny_ shop on Clement St. in San Francisco in '81.
Greetings from the SF Bay Area!!! :)
>one question. Is Allan Holdsworth a male phenomenon?
Yeah, well, i couldn't let this go by (again) now, could I???
:) :) :)
Well, I would say *Allan Holdsworth* IS a male phenomenon, BUT appreciating
his music is NOT. :)
O.k., I can see why it seems that way. But beleive me, i know men who
didn't 'get it' either. :)
>we saw him live once, I've gone
>without her since then with her blessing. Any thoughts on this?
Yeah! Drag her again. Somethings take a while to 'get'. :)
>Don't get
>all caught up in this labeling cr*p. It's *music*, Ok? Just enjoy it.
Like, labeling it a male thing??? (sorry, couldn't resist!!!)
-Cyndy
--**********************************************************************--
"No use making the same mistakes Cyndy Bresloff
Forever and ever again (you are ...
Caught in a circle what you listen to)
You can't stop spinning lastdryad@earthlink.net
Back to the beginning
Again" -- Annette Peacock/Bill Bruford << think green thoughts >>
--**********************************************************************--
----------
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 10:40:03 -0600
From: Tony Hubert
Subject: A Male Phenomenon
>Is Allan Holdsworth a male phenomenon?
This raises an interesting issue. I don't know that AH is specifically a
male phenomenon, but I notice that enjoyment of musical virtuosity seems to
be a primarily male thing. I told my girlfriend that Paco DeLucia, Al
DiMeola and John McLaughlin were touring again; I had a gleam in my eye--she
just says, non chalantly, "Oh that's one of those 'male' things." Sounded
almost as if she were humoring me! I was a tad angry that she didn't
"share" my passion. But that's the way it is, I suppose. And I detect that
for many people who don't get into "shredder" guitar they don't really care
how fast you play, or how much you improvise, how many modes you can
explore, or how much string-skipping you do. They're as happy listening to
Neil Young as to Allan Holdsworth or Tony MacAlpine.
----------
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 10:49:33 -0500
From: Vince_Leonberger@mail.sel.sony.com (Vince Leonberger)
One question. Is Allan Holdsworth a male phenomenon?
My wife certainly doesn't get it. We saw him live once, I've gone
without her since then with her blessing. Any thoughts on this?
Hey Ken,
Your going to find that very few people understand Allan Holdsworths
music. Male or Female. Its pretty lonely being a Holdworth fan.
Vince
----------
From: lednammurco@earthlink.net
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 15:14:52 -0800
Subject: Harmonic "constraints"
<<>>
I think a key issue in this argument is the instrument that is being used.
In the broader sense of music, since the advent of 20th century orchestral
composers, it may be hard to conceive of new the things happening in our 12
note system. A great deal of dissonant harmony and melody has been covered
by later composers such as Shoenberg, Stravinsky, Bartok, Varese etc.....
Whether or not one percieves Holdwsorth as innovating beyond that is sort
of hard to argue. One thing that is for sure though, is that Allan did
"liberate" constraints harmonically and melodically on the guitar and for
electric ensemble music. His influence in this way has been felt in many of
the popular music genres besides that of the genre of instrumental music
for which he is known for.
Hearing him on Bruford's "One of A kind" and then "IOU" was a mind blowing
experience for me when I was younger. I was familiar with the composers of
the 20th. Century and their musical ideas, but had never even dreamed of
the stuff Allan was making possible for the instrument. Today, hearing
someone else use that kind of vocabulary would not be a shock, as I know it
would relate to his work in some way.
There are more elements than just this..........more than I care to argue.
These type of ideas that he brought to life with his approach to chords,
improvisation,His use of space and atmosphere, the role of the other band
members etc......have furthered the guitar in measurable strides putting
him in a class of one of the true innovators of the instrument.
I assume most people here are guitarists and that is why they feel this
way. If one was to study scores of 20th century composers, then maybe you
could find things that have been done before in some other context. With
only a 12 note system, you are going to find similarities. One thing is for
sure.........pull out some guitar records that predate the IOU album, and
you will not find that kind of stuff happening on other guitar albums.
----------
Subject: Allan and allfans
From: lmiller7@juno.com (Leslie J Miller)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 23:30:04 EST
To Allan and all fans:
I am a new writer to this address. I am delighted to be communicating
with Allan Holdswoth's fans... and reading new stuff about him. It is so
hard to find thing about him in this part of the country at times. To
Allan:Thank you for bending my mind and soul for these many years...Makes
a person hear and precive things in a different light...To the fans
writing: What fun!Yet I don't understand but why there are a few so dang
defensive about what Allan should sound or not sound like. Shoot, I like
jazz, rock,classical,etc. A bit of all music. To me Personally, Allan is
not 100%jazz, nor !00%rock. He probably did not set out to change a
particular style of music or to be an innovator of sorts. But he is
definitely a creative artist who has taken the knowledge of what he knows
of the jazz and rock styles and has come up with a sound that is his own
trademark. He also changes. To me that is what makes an artist,for that
is from the person themself. Who really cares about all the nit picking
mumbo jumbo. I respect a knowledgeable musician, but I give my heart to
the musician who is not only knowledgeable, but captures my whole self
emotionally.Like others I enjoy, Allan has accomplished both the
musicianship and emotional side.And that to me is what counts.
One of the letters also asked if Allan was a male phenomenon. I am a
female and have gotten some surprised looks or statements from males when
I speak of Allan or share his music with them (If they had not heard him
before). They seem surprised that "I get it". (one guy I told that I was
a fan fell off the outside porch in surprise...quite a fall down to the
ground!)I feel that there is no "Getting"to his music..just liking it and
feeling it with my soul.If ever you are uptight about him,just close your
eyes,listen and float into Allan's world for awhile...Your attitude will
definitely change! To fans:As you have gathered I like to write. If
anyone is interested in writing to another fan beyond the digest please
feel free to E-Mail me lmiller@juno.com
These
are road games....
Leslie
----------
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 06:50:33 -0800
From: Joseph Barbarotta
Subject: Re:
Holdsworthfest!
I Just got NTS, Heavy Machinery, Gongzilla, and Silent Will. Yikes!
Everytime I think I've heard the definitive AH piece
I prove myself wrong. I like to be wrong.
----------
From: MrBERWELL@aol.com
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 04:13:34 -0500
Subject: Re: No subject
> From: KRosser414@aol.com
> Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 11:24:15 -0500
> Subject: Re: No Subject
~
> Again, what harmonic constraints in jazz existed in 1969, even? This is a
> full ten years after Ornette Coleman & Cecil Taylor's free jazz, Miles'
> modality, Coltrane's polytonality, etc, etc, etc. My point is not that
Allan
> doesn't use a very sophisticated approach to harmony, of course he does.
My
> point is that in jazz in 1969, the road to 'harmonic liberation' was
already paved wide open.
I have to disagree!! First of all, Allan plays the guitar, unlike anyone
else you mentioned. Now, I know, we're talking MUSIC here, and the
musicians' instrument of choice should not matter, because it's whats in
their *head*, that makes them unique, ground breaking, pushing harmonic
constraints, or whatever... But Allan cannot play like Ornette, Coltrane
couldn't play like Art Tatum, Henry Threadgill can't play like McCoy Tyner.
There is something inherently different about each instrument, and those
differences can lend themselves to different aspects when it comes to making
music, or "liberating harmonic constraint" as you like to say.
But- aside from that--- I believe that jazz has evolved SO much since the
early sixties... By 1969 jazz was pretty much defined, and once you define a
genre, it pretty much dies- well, it doesnt die, of course, but anything
created thereafter, is something *new*. I think you might agree with me here
somewhat... because I see the point you were trying to make, very clearly.
BUT- I think what Allan was doing was new, in regards to his instrument, and
in regards to the context(s) in which he has played in. He hasn't really
done anything in a straight ahead vein, until NTS. Now, I am talking about
music overall, not just soloing. To me, his soloing is just one aspect of
the musician. I don't mean to sound like someone who can't find fault with
the man, I could find some aspects about him I dont like, but right now, I
feel like accentuating the positive.
> There was nothing to 'liberate' at that point. Listen to
> Henry Threadgill now - there still isn't. Those playing today in the
> "constraints" of ii-V-I's do so out of choice, not because it's demanded
or
> even common practice at this point. Just as you can't assume someone
playing
> a diatonic scale is doing so not because he knows no other scale, it's
quite
> possible and most likely because that's what suits his needs. There are
no
> real constraints anymore, the choices are wide open and have been for a
long,
> long time.
Well what about my neighbor downstairs? He plays a Sam Chileon chip chip tee
chee pee, and he is one helluvan innovator. He improvises like no one else.
You have'nt heard him, but would you agree, that it just might be possible,
that he is liberating harmonic constraints like there's no tomorrow??? Point
being, there may be people out there doing something *new*, pushing the
proverbial "harmonic constraints", but you just aren't aware of it. Or do
you believe that this is simply not possible, unless we come up with new
instruments, with more than 12 tones, and different ways of manipulating
them, etc.?
>
> So, fuck "Jazz History" then? Fine - I agree:-) I still wouldn't call
him a
> jazz innovator...
Okay, sounds like a moot point to me...
> >> I don't consider Holdsworth a lazy musician, but I do think he comes
from
> >and>> follows more of a rock aesthetic than a jazz aesthetic, although
he's
> >> obviously jazz-influenced.
> >
> >Yo, Ken, check out these things they sell at most drug stores-
they'recalled
> >Q-TIPS, and they'll only set you back $1.99!!
>
> So what does this mean, critical discussion here is not allowed? Or is
this
> just a forum for sycophantic fans? I'd be happy to discuss this in
detail,
> but I wonder if I'm wasting my time...
Obviously critical discussion IS allowed, since we are discussing!!
Sycophantic... I had to dig up my dictionary for that one, and although some
people around here may fall into that category, I definitely do not. In fact
I think most people here are the opposite. See my point above, I could find
fault with Allan...
> Again, I'm trying to talk about a critical judgement here that is
obviously
> highly subjective and I'd be willing to discuss with anyone, but when I
get
> insults it seems like anything beyond "fuck you, Allan is God" is
off-topic.
No, NO!! Your point was definitely WAY ON topic, or I wouldnt be discussing
it right now! Nobody here has ever said "F** you, Allan is God", is that the
way you took what I said? The phrase LIGHTEN UP is coming to mind... I was
just trying to discuss, like yourself, only I tried not to give the same ol',
same ol' typical response like others.. and you took it as an insult. It was
a JOKE!! (Do I really need to justify myself here??)
> If I say someone isn't a jazz innovator, I'm not saying they suck, I'm
> saying they're not a jazz innovator IN MY OPINION.
But you don't need to say that!! Of course anything you say IS YOUR
OPINION!! Anything I say is mine, I dont think I have to put "imho" after
every little thing I say, afterall, everything we say is just our own
opinions.
>.Why jump to these sort of
> conclusions? The problem is not with my ears, the problem is that we
can't
> talk critically about something we hear differently.
Sure we can, at least I can anyway. You post. I rebut; you rebut, etc.,
etc. It's too bad that along the way you felt insulted. I don't even see
how you could be insulted, you dont even know me!!!! You CAN'T insult me, go
ahead, try! You're sitting there thinking I'm an A-hole, while I sit here
with a big grin on my face!!!
Enough of that. Because of your second post, I now see a little more clearly
the point you were trying to make. Maybe you see mine a little more clearly
too. Maybe after another digest or two we'll both be in total agreement
(although I have no idea on WHAT..) and we'll have nothing more to say.
> [ Moderator's note: Well, speaking of jumping to conclusions, let's
> not make decisions about an entire forum based on *one* contributor's
Good point Jeff. I have no problem with being thought of as an idiotic
bloke! (Not that thats what you were saying..) There's got to be at least
ONE around here!
>From: "Kenneth M. Sailors"
>Subject: A couple of thoughts
~
>One question. Is Allan Holdsworth a male phenomenon?
Well, he IS male.. and he is considered a phenomenon by some.. OH- did you
mean is he perceived as a phenomenon soley by other males?? That may seem
likely, but I know of a couple of die-hard female fans on this very list!
> From: Elena Rigon
> Subject: Lyrics
~
>
> Does anybody know how I could get some of the following lyrics:
>
> . All our yesterdays
> . Against the clock
> . The things you see
> . Endomorph
Yes! Put on the cd's and listen to those songs repeatedly, very carefully..
then write them down! Seriously, I think that is your best bet. On a
somewhat related note, does anyone know the lyrics to the original "Water On
the Brain"? I think I wil try to provide the list with a service, and try
and write them down and post them on the next digest...
Bye bye
----------
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