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The New Atavachron Digest 11/96
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 11:04:12 -0500
From: owner-atavachron@jabular.webster.com
Apparently-To: atavachron-outgoing@jabular.webster.com
To: JEFF@ADDIMENSION.COM
The New Atavachron Digest 96/11/02
Sender: owner-atavachron@webster.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Jeff Preston
----------
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 01:12:41 -0500 (EST)
From: James Peele
Subject: I.O.U. (re-release?)
Hi there...
The other day an evil person walked off with my CD carrying case which
contained 10 CDs... One of the CDs stolen was I.O.U.
Is there a re-issue of the album coming out remastered with bonus tracks???
If so, I'll hold off until the release date... When is this going to
happen?
Also, I was looking around on the CD connection and noticed these titles:
Holdsworth *Allan & Back" Things You See/Sunbird
Holdsworth/Beck - Things You See
Does anyone have any info on these CDs?
Thanks in advance for your help...
Jay Peele
jpeele@osprey.unf.edu
----------
Date: 01 Nov 96 01:06:35 EST
From: "Mark D. Johnson" <103600.1063@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Strings 'n Picks
I'm curious to know what gauge set of strings comes with the AH Carvin Guitar,
believing that this might indicate the gauges that AH uses.
I personnally like a slightly heavier set of strings such as the Ernie Ball .10
gauge (high e is .10 gauge) set compared to the .08 and .09 gauge sets that seem
to be so common because there are more dynamics to work with. Similarly, I like
heavy picks such as the Jim Dunlop Big Stubby 2.0 mm's for a wider range of
dynamics. Any idea what Alan uses?
Mark D. Johnson
----------
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 01:28:40 -0500
From: chip@csra.net (Chip the Apparently Endlessly Single)
Subject: Jazz?
(sorry, this is long, but....)
>From: lednammurco@earthlink.net
>of fire, but when it comes to playing with a swing feel.....well it just
>isn't in him. He did sound much better on NTS than I had expected.
I agree, in that it doesn't "swing" as hard as some drummers in the
Marsalis-retro stable, BUT.....
Consider that there is ALOT of nuances in the playing that is almost
exclusively what you could call "Holdsworth type-drumming"-isms.
He's pretty successfully melded the Husband/Wackerman/Coliauta
type of accents into a more traditional modern jazz style. I look
at it like "jazz influenced by rock accents" as opposed to "rock influenced
by jazz", which is sort of what so-called "fusion" is. It's a unique hybrid.
I'm not that good of a drummer, but I would think Covington did a pretty
decent job juggling two different philosophies (which may be the problem
in that you end up pleasing no one).
IMHO, Holdsworth is the first to successfully do something worthy of the
name "fusion", in that his music contained a jazz *philosophy*, while avoiding
cliches. I would think that's how he thinks of it, particularly in the case
of the dotted-eight "spanga-lang" ride stuff - hence none of his own music
(thankfully) featuring that aspect of jazz. Which leads to:
> The reality is that NTS is not a "jazz" record anyway. It is
"Jazz" has nothing to do with a "swinging" ride pattern. It's about an
improvisational approach to music, taking something and letting personal
interpretation of the changes mold the music. Covington doesn't swing as
well as hard as Art Blakey - but I don't think Blakey could have played
like Coliauta on _Secrets_, either. Not that Covington could, perhaps, but
Holdsworth needed that combination, which is asking for alot.
>Holdswoth's interpretation of these standards, which I think is great.
The fact that it's an interpretation is what makes it jazz, *combined* with
the concept that everyone is doing their own thing with the music. I'm sure
there was never two takes of any of the tunes that were identical.
>The thing is...no serious jazz player would consider it "Jazz', but who
Who cares what a "serious jazz player" thinks? "Jazz", as defined by
that curmudgeon of antiquity Wynton Marsalis, is dead. People playing
music in the 1990's that sounds like music played by musicians in the 50's
doesn't make it the same thing. That doesn't mean the people that do that
aren't killer musicians, but just that they're not contributing anything new.
Jazz used to be something that built on what came before it; it's now being
reduced to something like a metal cover band. Coltrane didn't worry about
sounding like his antecedents, he went about coming up with new things, new
sounds.
IMO Holdsworth's music is the *only* thing that deserves the label "jazz"
these days. It's features the same attributes of Coltrane, Parker, Morton,
and any other significant jazz artist's music did *while* it was happening:
novel and inspired improvisation, and *new* harmonic and rhythmic innovation.
I'm selfish. I don't want to hear a *recreation* of great music, I want to
hear the *creation* of *new* music.
In other words - I'm glad Holdsworth didn't get a more trad drummer. He
may as well have grabbed a big archtop and limited himself to phrases in
the style contemporary of pre-1961 style "jazz". But then, that would be
redundant...
ON THE OTHER HAND, it would have been good *IF* he could have attracted
some from the Marsalis/retro-modern camp (let's see... Jeff Watts, Marcus
Roberts or Kenny Kirkland... Ron Carter..) , if for nothing else but the
exposure and the
mainstream "legitimacy" (ack) it would give him with that audience. That's
screwed
up, but that's the way I see it.
(Sorry, I'm in a bad mood).
>From: henrik.lundberg@gnesta.mail.telia.com (Henrik Lundberg)
>Maybe a mother gets the same feeling, when her son is out with the wrong
gang...
If he had gotten some "authentic" guys to play in a straight style, it would
almost
be like "this is the Holdsworth record where he proves to the critics he can
play that
style", as opposed to "this is the Holdsworth record where he *shows* the
critics
he can interpret some classic music with his own style". Important difference,
don't you think?
Besides... where are all the raves for the TONE on Nuages? Man! Get out of
here! It sounds sorta like he's got the volume on the guitar rolled back, a
sort
of impedance mis-match sound, but gained up to accomodate. A new aspect to
his sound - again, a thing that continues to evolve (what a concept!). It
sounds like
he's settled into a set peak frequency for his lead tone now (which is probably
an aspect of the new guitar), less narrow and more organic. Interesting.
Oh well.
]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] Chip McDonald - chip@csra.net [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[
]]]]]]]]] "Try to be reasonable whenever possible" [[[[[[[[[[[
]]I have a web page @: www.csra.net/chip/default.htm[[
]]]HoldsworthFloydKatek.d.SarahninEnyaQueenHendrixMcCartney[[[
]]MarshallIbanezRocktronADA|Atlanta Rhythm City tried to rip me off![[
NivenWGibsonChomskyLarsonRandPythonCleeseR.ScottKubrickGMarx
Hep hep! I'm in Purgatory! / Professional Single Guy
----------
From: Steve_Vaughan@ilink.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 96 09:45:09 GMT
Subject: More I.O.U / Road Games stuff
Hello all,
last night was Hallowe'en so it must be time for me to de-lurk again.
I recently picked up a copy of I.O.U. on CD, and the weirdest thing
happens when I play it. At the end of tha last track, instead of the
CD finishing, and returning to track 1 time 0:00, it stays at track 8,
time 4:43 (or whatever the final time is) and stops dead there.
None of the buttons on my CD player will work after this! I can't get
the thing out of there unless I switch the CD player off and on again!
(It's a NAD cd player).
Anyone else experience the same thing? I don't think I'll be taking
the CD back, after all, I can get all the music out of it and it's
sort of an endearing glitch.
On the subject of Road Games - for the time being I can't access the
WWW, so I can't get this information off the Holdsworth page - my
apologies for going over old ground. Would I be right in saying the
lineup is Paul Williams/Chad Wackerman/Jeff Berlin? Anyone else on
there? When was it released?
I'm sure most people know that Road Games is NOT available on CD (yet)
but does anyone know of a record company mailing address (is it
Warners?) where some gentle persuasion could be applied?
Two side issues :
a) I saw John Etheridge last night (Ex Soft Machine) in a dinky wine
bar in London for THREE POUNDS. The man's a very talented guitarist.
It was a pretty standard trio setup (ac. bass, drums) doing pretty
standard songs, but any oaf could spot his talent. He seems a tad
wasted in this setting, but then, I'm sure that's the case with many a
musician...
b) if ANYONE bumps into Gary Willis again could you PLEASE ask him to
drag the collective asses of Tribal Tech over to the UK sometime?
We're all gagging for the live experience here.
Until next time (don't hold your breath)
Steve Vaughan
----------
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 07:27:44 -0700 (MST)
From: Bill Lantz
Subject: Re: i.o.u.
Jeff Preston wrote:
> [ Moderator's note: It's printed in gold ink at the bottom of the
> back cover, and I have a scanner to prove it. So, *nyah*. :)
> --JP ]
Sorry to drag this out, but my copy doesn't say that! It only says at the
bottom of the back cover: Information: (714)544-7424. There is no printing
on the spine as well. So it would seem that there may have been more then
one pressing for the first editon of i.o.u. - or at least more than one
record cover.
Bill
----------
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 12:57:22 -0500
Message-ID: <00017D4F.1977@mail.sel.sony.com>
Subject: NTS
Hello again everyone,
I have been listening to the None To Soon CD and I must say I like it
very much. I like it much better than Allans last couple of offerings
( and I purchase them all). This is definitely jazz and as usual
Allans guitar and synthax playing SOARS.
Kirk, you and Gary sound great together on this one. There will always
be critics right?
Gordan Beck really fills in all the gaps with his outstanding keyboard
playing.
The more I play it the more I like it. By the way, are the guitar
notes Allan plays on Countdown ( Coltrane) the same as the sax notes
played by John Coltrane on Giant Steps. Both play so incredibly fast ,
that it is hard to tell ( not that it really matters, its still sounds
fantastic regardless.)
Keep up the good work guys.
Vince
----------
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 11:04:41 -0700
From: Chris Manuel
Subject: Boogie Tweaking
One of the guitar sounds that I _really_ like is the smooth overdrive
sound that AH gets from his .50 Calibre Boogie. (I know it's more than
just the amp but the amp is usually the most important part of the
equation).
Anyway, I've had a hard time figuring out how to get the smooth sound
without the zzzz of harsher harmonics. I guess I could have just ordered
a Fizzbuster but that seemed too easy! The other day I was noodling
around and tried playing the lead channel with it's volume control
completely off, just using the Master to crank the sound. It's just loud
enough for recording, getting that interaction between guitar and amp,
but it is _much_ smoother and sweeter sounding than when played the
normal way. Has anyone else encountered this phenomenon or have I got a
special Boogie?
As to the jazz nature of NTS - I'm still waiting for my copy but I'm
glad to hear that it isn't like the ding-a-ding jazz style that puts the
"s" in suporific.
Lastly, I've finally managed to move my home studio out of the spare
bedroom and into a free-standing building (ok, the back half of the
garage, but I still get to call it my studio now, instead of the spare
bedroom. Drop by my website in about a week's time and I'll have
*photos*! Maybe even some Shockwave streaming audio samples.
Later
--
Chris Manuel
Windswept Media
250.382.5811
cpmanuel@islandnet.com
http://www.islandnet.com/~cpmanuel
----------
From: ToddM@LaserMaster.Com
Date: 1 Nov 1996 13:02:03CST6CDT
Subject: Covington, NTS, The Carvin Guitar, and more...
Geez, guys - you act like the guy was playing clams left and right and he's
one of
the better drummers around, at least for me. It's not totally straight
ahead jazz,
it's more like POWER-JAZZ (not really fusion). Fusion implies that there's some
rock in there and the only rock I hear at all is distantly related to a
distorted guitar
tone. But back to Kirk.
Yes, he's not Louis Bellson but then again, if Allan wanted Louie Bellson he
would have
hired Louie. He wanted to hear Kirk Covington's boiler room drumming and
damn, that's
what he got. Yeah, Tony Williams might have produced a more "legitimate"
(whatever
that means) jazz feel, but Allan's played with Tony amply (see "Lifetime"
and the
track on "Atavachron" for details) but in this setting Kirk fit the bill for
Allan quite
amply. Who knows?
Another thing:
The SynthAxe is the CONTROLLER for a type of synthesizer. Any sounds that
the SynthAxe
generates are generated by some type of synth module. So any of you out
there who say the
unit generates "cheap" "wheedling" "shit"-tones must realize that the type
of synth module
used is generally at fault.
Allan's probably at the mercy of what he can get, he's not hooking the thing
up to Fairlights and
Synclaviers, but smaller portable MIDI modules. Frankly, I think it
provides a nice contrast to
the sound of the guitar and piano and MAYBE (just maybe) Allan LIKES the
sound of the modules
he does have access to. Contrast, people, that's what it's all about.
Some of the short attack
sounds are probably used since they are more conducive to faster soloing.
If you have a patch
with a giant massive envelope sweep at the end you can't really do a lot
with it except ambient
padding or drones.
The Carvin Guitar:
What I like about it is the simplicity. The cover photo of the catalog
makes me want one -
it's not a giant clunking guitar, but small, compact. I like the art-deco
touch at the bottom
of the body, the little flare. The flame maple cap is super classy - this
huge expanse of
maple.
It looks like you could pile into a big easy chair with one and practice for
hours without a
problem. I like the small headstock (my EX-2 Heartfield has a small
headstock like that
and it's just nicer to deal with), the fact that the controls are limited to
volume, tone and
one pickup means all of the tone shaping is done with your pick and/or
hands. The Wilkinson
trem seems nice enough and the semi-hollow body means a nice warm tone. I
wonder how it
sounds acoustically?
I've got a shred metal machine (Charvel) back at the apartment I can use if
I need to do that.
The Holdsworth would seem to be useable and/or more versatile in many types
of settings
(jazz, rock and roll, fusion stuff, electronic ambience, fingerpicking,
country!).
And as for the big neck - FINALLY. I've got huge hands - I can hold one
finger down and do a
fifth power chord, so the thicker neck makes it more realistic for someone
like me. Yeah, I
want one.
Anyway, my two cents...
Todd Madson
PressMate Product Specialist
LaserMaster Big Color Technical Support
Corporate Web Site: http://www.lasermaster.com/
LaserMaster BBS: (612) TEK-LINE
OTIS Faxback Service: (612) 943-3737
----------
From: "Marc Simons"
Subject: Allan's melodics and rithm sections
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 13:09:17 +0100
Hi, outthere!
I have been listening to AH for about 8 years now. (After beiing affected
to the AH virus by a friend of mine)
My opinion is that it is pretty useless to cathagorize his music as 'Jazz',
'JazzRock', 'Progressive' or anything else. As mentioned: It works like a
virus, and it affects you! Note that I have a lot of global Jazz stuff on
CD's, but AH is the one that is never boring, and goes round and round
again in my CD player. Sometimes I try to wiggle my fingers a bit on a
(partially) home brewed bass guitar + amp. Actually, most of the time I do
not even know what notes I am playing, however, when you try something of
Jimmy Johnson's / Paul Carmichael's bass playing, I think that the 'musical
theorties behind' are not that important! It is very hard to do, and very
melodic! To give you an example: What I found out that AH + band are
modulating half a note often. This is why it is so hard to follow for
people that does not know him. When you try to play the basics on 'HOME'
(Metal Fatigue) you find this out. (BTW, who is doing bass here? I guess
JJ, but it is not on the cover...) Trying to play some bass on AH's music
seems to be a waste of time for a lot of people, but it gives you a much
better understanding of AH's compositions. Try to play 'WHERE IS ONE', just
on bass guitar (See note #1). You do not need to play it 'exactly as is',
because THAT is a waste of time. (See note #2) Just play the basics, and
especially the modulations around AH's great solo! IT IS JUST FANTASTIC to
hear allan on the background while YOU wiggle your fingers! It is very good
for hearing practice too! What I found out on the bass parts in AH's
compositions is that speed NEVER COUNTS, it is the notes, timing,
modulations, etc. There are a lot of good musicians out there, also here in
The Netherlands. I have met a guy that could play AH, so I went to listen
to the guy. Guess what happened: Just technical perfect playing..........
No fuckin' feeling! The guy did not even understand the meaning behind AH's
music: Conclusion: He has to learn to LISTEN to AH's compositions first
before. I guess he got a conservatory study in a very theoretical way!
Also, do not underestimate the value of the drumming parts on AH's albums:
Gary, Vinni and Chat are the top at the moment. Do you really believe that
they write out the compositions on all details that they are doing? Forget
it! They work out the basic track setup, and the rest is as it should be:
Practical experiance, endurance, improvisation and a lot of FEEL. When I am
wrong in my thoughts, herewith I ask you to respond with your statement!
Best Regards to you all affected with the right virus: The AH virus.....
Marc.
Note #1) The recording of 'WHERE IS ONE' is brought 'out of focus' a bit.
To solve this, do the following:
A) Re-adjust the strings on your bass guitar, OR;
B) Get an old cassette recorder. Record the track on that recorder. Now,
open up the recorder (yep, the screws at the bottom..). There must be a
small motor that runs the mechanics into the recorder. There is a small
hole in the motor. Get a tiny screwdriver and re-adjust the motor so that
AH's tones are tuned right. (WATCH FOR POWER HAZARD!)
Note #2) Most people do not LISTEN to the meaning of the notes, they only
try to play them 'as is' without realizing the MEANING of the notes. Real
musicians HAVE A REASON for EVERY NOTE they play. (Rufus Reid) That is why
I find people like 'David Sanborn' very boring after a few tracks already.
P.S. Keep up the good work, John!
----------
End of Atavachron Digest
Send postings to: atavachron@webster.com
Send administrative requests to: atavachron-request@addimension.com
Web page: http://www.addimension.com/holdsworth/
Sponsored in part by Riff Technology, Inc.
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Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 20:54:49 -0500
From: owner-atavachron@jabular.webster.com
Apparently-To: atavachron-outgoing@jabular.webster.com
To: JEFF@ADDIMENSION.COM
The New Atavachron Digest 96/11/04
Sender: owner-atavachron@webster.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Jeff Preston
----------
From: KRosser414@aol.com
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 12:55:14 -0500
Subject: Re: No Subject
In a message dated 96-11-02 11:25:38 EST, you write:
>Who cares what a "serious jazz player" thinks? "Jazz", as defined by
>that curmudgeon of antiquity Wynton Marsalis, is dead.
By whose standards? Is the music of Bach or Stravinsky dead? The shit's not
dead if there are still people studying it, playing it, listening to it,
talking about it, arguing over it and being moved by it. I have a lot of
criticism for Wynton also, but at least he's stirred up some controversy
that's been great for the art form.
> Coltrane didn't worry about
>sounding like his antecedents, he went about coming up with new things, new
>sounds.
Any reading of a good biography on Coltrane will tell you he spent a LOT of
time learning and absorbing the vocabulary of his antecedents, as well as his
contemporaries. In fact, due to his highly obsessive/compulsive personal
nature, you possibly could call it "worrying".
Not intended as a flame, but just trying to assert respect where respect is
due,
Ken
----------
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 13:43:07 -0500
From: Polar1@aol.com
To: jeff@addimension.com
Subject: allans 'comping
Atavachrons,
One of the coolest things about NTS or any of AH's work is his
'comping style. Sometimes it'll be with that clean sound or sometimes it'll
be with the synthaxe but i love to listen to him 'comping while gary or jimmy
plays a solo....
He'll play the coolest inversions of the chords, and it just makes
me feel good to hear him back there laying it down. There's a lot of Allans
'comping on NTS.
jim
----------
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 1996 10:51:37 -0800
From: Michael Young
Subject: Re:
>Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 01:12:41 -0500 (EST)
>From: James Peele
>Subject: I.O.U. (re-release?)
>
>Also, I was looking around on the CD connection and noticed these titles:
>Holdsworth *Allan & Back" Things You See/Sunbird
>Holdsworth/Beck - Things You See
>
>Does anyone have any info on these CDs?
The Things You See (1980) and Sunbird (1979) were reissued on a single CD
(JMS 048-2) in 1989. AH - guitars, violin, vocals; GB - keyboards; Jean
Francois Jenny-Clark - bass; Aldo Romano - drums, percussion
--
Michael Young Box 527, Heriot Bay, BC V0P 1H0 myoung@cr.island.net
----------
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 16:04:22 -0500
From: jseltzer@wardenclyffe.com (Captain Liberal)
Subject: Re:
>
>I'm curious to know what gauge set of strings comes with the AH Carvin Guitar,
>believing that this might indicate the gauges that AH uses.
>
On the Steinbergers, I believe that Allan used LaBella .009 thru .046.
Lighter gauges were used on the Baritones...
>I personnally like a slightly heavier set of strings such as the Ernie Ball .10
>gauge (high e is .10 gauge) set compared to the .08 and .09 gauge sets that
seem
>to be so common because there are more dynamics to work with. Similarly, I
like
>heavy picks such as the Jim Dunlop Big Stubby 2.0 mm's for a wider range of
>dynamics. Any idea what Alan uses?
>
>Mark D. Johnson
>
Last I heard, Allan used Jim Dunlop 1mm nylon picks.
Captain Liberal
-------------------------------------------------
The opinions voiced herein DO represent the views
of the management of Wardenclyffe Technology Ltd.
-------------------------------------------------
----------
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 16:15:43 -0500
From: jseltzer@wardenclyffe.com (Captain Liberal)
Subject: Re:
>Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 11:04:41 -0700
>From: Chris Manuel
>Subject: Boogie Tweaking
>
>One of the guitar sounds that I _really_ like is the smooth overdrive
>sound that AH gets from his .50 Calibre Boogie. (I know it's more than
>just the amp but the amp is usually the most important part of the
>equation).
>
>Anyway, I've had a hard time figuring out how to get the smooth sound
>without the zzzz of harsher harmonics. I guess I could have just ordered
>a Fizzbuster but that seemed too easy! The other day I was noodling
>around and tried playing the lead channel with it's volume control
>completely off, just using the Master to crank the sound. It's just loud
>enough for recording, getting that interaction between guitar and amp,
>but it is _much_ smoother and sweeter sounding than when played the
>normal way. Has anyone else encountered this phenomenon or have I got a
>special Boogie?
>
This does work with mine also...
BTW, I read somewhere that Allan's .50 caliber had a modification to lower
the overall gain.
Captain Liberal
-------------------------------------------------
The opinions voiced herein DO represent the views
of the management of Wardenclyffe Technology Ltd.
-------------------------------------------------
----------
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 16:31:12 -0500
From: jseltzer@wardenclyffe.com (Captain Liberal)
Subject: Re:
>Allan's probably at the mercy of what he can get, he's not hooking the thing
>up to Fairlights and
>Synclaviers, but smaller portable MIDI modules. Frankly, I think it
>provides a nice contrast to
>the sound of the guitar and piano and MAYBE (just maybe) Allan LIKES the
>sound of the modules
>he does have access to.
I hardly think Allan's at the mercy of any synth sounds. If he didn't like
'em, he wouldn't use 'em. I personally love the bell like tones and pad
sounds from NTS. I'd be interested to know what synths he uses for those...
I know Allan has a penchant for Oberheims, which I share. (Anybody got an
Xpander or Matric 12 for sale cheap?) One album has a reference to Harris
synthesizers. Anyone know anything?
Captain Liberal
-------------------------------------------------
The opinions voiced herein DO represent the views
of the management of Wardenclyffe Technology Ltd.
-------------------------------------------------
----------
From: lednammurco@earthlink.net
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 1996 14:27:21 -0800
Subject: NTS and Kirk
Hi, I just wanted to clarify my post about Kirk Covington and "jazz"
feel, since there were a few responses about my post.
Like I said in my original post, I do enjoy Kirk's playing a lot.
What I was trying to say was that there are more modern jazz type drummers
who are furthering the legacy of the jazz tradition. Listen to John
Scofeild, Bill Frissell, Michael Brecker and you will see what I mean.
I COMPLETELY agree with the concept of not repeating the burnt out
traditional jazz vocabulary that was fresh when Miles,Parker, and Coltrane
were around. To be honest, I despise mucisians who parrot the original
masters and have no identity of their own. As a professional Jazz musician
with several records out, I do my best to NOT sound like anyone else.
I have seen Kirk many times, but like all styles...........if you
are going to attempt to play with a swing feel, you have to have the
vocabulary in you to do something new with it. I always enjoy seeing Kirk
with Tribal Tech. He is a real power house, and is also quite humerous.
Anyway, please don't misinterpret my post............I think
NTS is a good album, and Kirk did a pretty good job.
----------
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 1996 00:31:00 -0500
From: Kent Del Castillo
Subject: Back to basics
Hello again!
I'm dismayed at the narrow-mindedness of the view of jazz and fusion in
this group. Fusion started a long time ago by people like Miles Davis
(Bitches Brew) and had many proponents like Return to Forever/Chick
Corea, Mahavishnu Orchestra/John McLaughlin, just to name a *MINISCULE*
of players. Todays fusion bombs still include the prenamed individuals
as well as far reaching people like Steve Coleman and Tribal Tech.
Granted, McLaughlin et al do not solely play fusion, they play jazz as
well. It is in this way that AH's playing is branching out to include
jazz on top of his already defined and yet unstatic fusion style.
To call NTS a fusion album is a stretch. It CLEARLY rings of jazz
structure, feel, and style. The drumming attempts to play jazz but falls
short. The others easily fill the void.
In sum, AH is one of the unique voices in fusion today, but it is
ignorant to say he is alone, or that he is the only one playing fusion
or jazz.
Thanx,
Kent D.
----------
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 1996 15:31:51 +0000
From: Andrew Lewis
Subject: Re:
> From: Steve_Vaughan@ilink.demon.co.uk
> Date: Fri, 01 Nov 96 09:45:09 GMT
> Subject: More I.O.U / Road Games stuff
> I recently picked up a copy of I.O.U. on CD, and the weirdest thing
> happens when I play it. At the end of tha last track, instead of the
> CD finishing, and returning to track 1 time 0:00, it stays at track 8,
> time 4:43 (or whatever the final time is) and stops dead there.
>
> None of the buttons on my CD player will work after this! I can't get
> the thing out of there unless I switch the CD player off and on again!
> (It's a NAD cd player).
>
> Anyone else experience the same thing? I don't think I'll be taking
> the CD back, after all, I can get all the music out of it and it's
> sort of an endearing glitch.
Just FYI--I've got the CD with no such problems, alsoplay it on an NAD (314)
CD player.
>
> On the subject of Road Games - for the time being I can't access the
> WWW, so I can't get this information off the Holdsworth page - my
> apologies for going over old ground. Would I be right in saying the
> lineup is Paul Williams/Chad Wackerman/Jeff Berlin? Anyone else on
> there? When was it released?
I don't have it in front of me, but there IS Jack Bruce doing some of
the singing. I remember this b/c I'm not that into Paul Williams.
Or at all into him (not a technique complaint...)
> From: ToddM@LaserMaster.Com
> Date: 1 Nov 1996 13:02:03CST6CDT
> Subject: Covington, NTS, The Carvin Guitar, and more...
>
> Geez, guys - you act like the guy was playing clams left and right and he's
> one of
> the better drummers around, at least for me. It's not totally straight
> ahead jazz,
> it's more like POWER-JAZZ (not really fusion). Fusion implies that
there's some
> rock in there and the only rock I hear at all is distantly related to a
> distorted guitar
> tone. But back to Kirk.
>
> Yes, he's not Louis Bellson but then again, if Allan wanted Louie Bellson he
> would have
> hired Louie. He wanted to hear Kirk Covington's boiler room drumming and
> damn, that's
> what he got. Yeah, Tony Williams might have produced a more "legitimate"
> (whatever
> that means) jazz feel, but Allan's played with Tony amply (see "Lifetime"
> and the
> track on "Atavachron" for details) but in this setting Kirk fit the bill for
> Allan quite
> amply. Who knows?
Many posts on this issue. My $.02 is that I'd like to hear AH
playing with, say Jack DeJohnette, or one of the younger guys like
Lewis Nash. Or even younger, with Leon Parker. THAT would be
interesting; however, in the meantime, no reason to diss Covington. Just that
one particular collaboration can't tell us what another would have
been like... I don't think it's just a matter of "at least there'd
be some legitimacy..." as some claim. Musically to have AH play with
DeJohnette would be fascinating. It would have been a different
project, and one I will continue to hope for, hope for desperately,
even. I will not let that hope disturb my enjoyment of NTS.
--Andrew
----------
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 23:27:08 +0100
From: henrik.lundberg@gnesta.mail.telia.com (Henrik Lundberg)
Subject: Jazz.
>From: chip@csra.net (Chip the Apparently Endlessly Single)
>Subject: Jazz?
>If he had gotten some "authentic" guys to play in a straight style, it would
>almost be like "this is the Holdsworth record where he proves to the
>critics he can
>play that style", as opposed to "this is the Holdsworth record where he
>*shows* the
>critics he can interpret some classic music with his own style".
>Important difference,
>don't you think?
Yeah, but my first-priority when i "analyze" lets say a cd, is not the
purpose of it, even if it sometimes, in specific genres is a must. What i
listen too is how the music sounds. My piont with:
>I have always thought that he should do a
jazz-cd so the jazz-police-guys gets to notice him.
was'nt that he had to prove anything, Allan doesn't have too prove anything
to anyone. What i meant in my "discuised-bad-english" was that it would
have been a great opportunity for Allan to get a more broader audience, to
get the jazz-fokes, especially older jazz-fokes to recognize him. Both are
worth it. He looses an audience he should have, and they doesn't even give
the music a try.
What makes it this way? Maybe it's so that the old II-V-I-guys just can't
understand the complex things Allan has done over the years, that is too
much over the top for them, but end up and reject it cause it has a rockier
sound. I don't know.
When I talk about Allan with people who are working jazz-musicians I notice
that they doesn't listen with the same ears when they listen to to Allans
music as if they listen to say , coltrane. They don't even bother to listen
to the beutiful melodies, the complex harmony over which Allan create these
melodies, because he's a rocker to them. And a jazz-trumpeter, can't listen
to rock.. You know!
So what i mean is that if he had done a real swingin cd, maybe just another
drummer would do it, maybe they couldn't resist to like it.
And to the jazz-discussion.
To me, when a drummer plays ding-dinga-ling on the ride, and when the bass
plays walking, it's jazz. One sort of jazz.
I don't care if:
>he *shows* the critics he can interpret some classic music with his own style
Who would believe that Allan shouldn't make it. Would he fall down on the
floor or breaking his fingers in a try to improvise over those II-V-I:s?
(yes I know, there isn't just II-V_I:s on this record). Naah, not really!
It just dont mean a thing if it ain't got that swing, and the "working
jazz-musicians" won't appriciate it if it doesn't swing. One could say: "So
what? who cares of what they think, fuck 'em". But I don't.
>less narrow and more organic. Interesting.
Yeah, the tone is great, it's more fluid than ever before.
Keep it up!
- henrik.lundberg@gnesta.mail.telia.com (Henrik Lundberg)
----------
From: Andrew_Munro@HSVPO.CCMAIL.CompuServe.COM
Date: 03 Nov 96 19:03:49 EST
Subject: None Too Soon
Well,here's my review.After the fourth listening,it's getting better!
I must admit the first time I heard it I thought it was boring.
Norwegian Wood:very catchy tune.Countdown:200mph.Nuages:nice tune.None
Too Soon suite:great.Inner Urge:great,like the Rusty bit at the end!
etc,etc.All other tunes are getting a good listen .Well I've got my
green cover now.Ha Ha Ha!!!
See ya,Andrew
P.S Gaslight in Melbourne report NTS is selling very well.I saw at
least ten copies in the storage drawer and near the front entrance.
----------
From: KingsleyD@aol.com
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 09:41:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Where is one?
>Note #1) The recording of 'WHERE IS ONE' is brought 'out of >focus' a bit.
On mine, the pitch goes several cents south at the end of AH's solo! I have
the original vinyl (featuring the "Luna Crack" reference - I purchased said
LP at AH's 1982 Boston show). My turntable's pitch adjustment is enough to
fix it, if I tape it and twiddle the knob on the fly.
Does this occur on the IOU CD as well?
Thoughts on AH's compositional sense: Listen to Coltrane's "Giant Steps",
Oliver Nelson's "Blues & The Abstract Truth", and some Aaron Copland (in
particular, a piece entitled "Quiet City." Also an old Claus Ogerman/Michael
Brecker record, "Cityscapes." AH's way with modulation and chordal voicings
isn't as unique as you might think once you listen to some of the things
Allan listened to himself. It *is* a beautiful and well-thought out
extension of these ideas, though.
IMHO, Allan's *rhythmic* sense is one of the most innovative aspects of his
music. Rather than establishing a set "groove" or rhythmic pattern, as in
essentially all bop/pop/rock/funk/blues, AH's rhythms are derived from the
composition's phrasing. This is pretty contrary to the way most drummers
approach things - my guess is that this is due largely to the expectations
placed on the drummers by other musicians, who want that really obvious beat
- so it's probably not all that easy for AH to find a drummer who can give
him what he wants. I saw Danny Gottlieb (original Pat Metheny Group drummer)
sit in with AH and JJ one time in Boston, and DG missed the boat entirely.
The older "straight jazz" drummers who take this approach. I used to drive
a couple of my students 50 miles to their lessons with Alan Dawson, a Boston
area old-timer, and AD would play something like "Take the A Train" on the
kit and you'd know *exactly* what tune he was playing.
>>Kingsley
----------
End of Atavachron Digest
Send postings to: atavachron@webster.com
Send administrative requests to: atavachron-request@addimension.com
Web page: http://www.addimension.com/holdsworth/
Sponsored in part by Alchemy Records
http://www.musicpro.com/alchemy/
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 13:31:51 -0500
From: owner-atavachron@jabular.webster.com
Apparently-To: atavachron-outgoing@jabular.webster.com
To: JEFF@ADDIMENSION.COM
The New Atavachron Digest 96/11/10
Sender: owner-atavachron@webster.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Jeff Preston
----------
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 23:52:34 -0500 (EST)
From: James Peele
Subject: I.O.U. re-release???
Someone please... :)
Any info on the I.O.U. re-release? I'm compulsive about my CD collection
and I still can't believe that CD was stolen... I hope the new version
comes out soon... Thanks...
Jay Peele
jpeele@osprey.unf.edu
[ Moderator's note: I haven't heard anything about this -- do you
know the source of the rumor? --JP ]
----------
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 10:41:05 +0100
From: Edwin van der Hoeven
Subject: Carvin Store
Hi Atavachronicles,
Great news...there will be a Carvin Store in The Hague in Holland.
Finally the opportunity the see the AH guitar and try it out.
Wont say to much words about the NTS cd 'cause I simply think its a
great record (especially guitar wise)!!! Thanx Allan
Edwin van der Hoeven
Http://www.dra.nl/~zwetje
----------
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 09:23:58 -0500
From: Daniel Barrett
Subject: Jazzy things
Someone wrote:
>>Who cares what a "serious jazz player" thinks? "Jazz", as defined by
>>that curmudgeon of antiquity Wynton Marsalis, is dead.
On November 2, 1996, KRosser414@aol.com responded:
>By whose standards? Is the music of Bach or Stravinsky dead? The shit's not
>dead if there are still people studying it, playing it...
I took the first quote above to mean that the old DEFINITION of
"Jazz" is dead. Not the music. That is, more styles of music are
considered "jazz" nowadays than before. That's a debatable point; but I
don't think the writer was claiming the music is dead.
On November 2, 1996, lednammurco@earthlink.net wrote:
>To be honest, I despise mucisians who parrot the original
>masters and have no identity of their own.
I don't, any more than I'd despise classical musicians for sounding
"authentic." Hey, if a guy sounds just like Coltrane on a good day, how
bad can that be? :-)
On November 4, 1996, KingsleyD@aol.com wrote:
>Thoughts on AH's compositional sense: Listen to Coltrane's "Giant Steps",
>Oliver Nelson's "Blues & The Abstract Truth", and some Aaron Copland (in
>particular, a piece entitled "Quiet City." Also an old Claus Ogerman/Michael
>Brecker record, "Cityscapes."
FYI, Allan cites "Cityscapes" as one of his favorite albums of
all time, according to an interview I saw years ago.
On November 2, 1996, Captain Liberal wrote:
>I hardly think Allan's at the mercy of any synth sounds. If he didn't like
>'em, he wouldn't use 'em.
On the other hand, he might not have time to program the sounds
he'd like. His albums are full of factory preset sounds from Oberheim and
Yamaha.
Dan
//////////////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
| Dan Barrett -- Computer Science Dept, University of MA, Amherst, MA 01003 |
| http://www.cs.umass.edu/~barrett/public.html -- barrett@cs.umass.edu |
| GENTLE GIANT WEB PAGE - http://www.cs.umass.edu/~barrett/gentlegiant.html |
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////////////////////////////////////
----------
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 12:13:22 -0500
From: chip@csra.net (Chip the Apparently Endlessly Single)
Subject: The Dead
>From: KRosser414@aol.com
>>Who cares what a "serious jazz player" thinks? "Jazz", as defined by
>>that curmudgeon of antiquity Wynton Marsalis, is dead.
>
>By whose standards? Is the music of Bach or Stravinsky dead? The shit's not
>dead if there are still people studying it, playing it, listening to it,
>talking about it, arguing over it and being moved by it. I have a lot of
I'm not saying the *music* of "jazz" is dead, but the *movement* of jazz.
Given who you cite, it's like saying the music of Bach isn't dead, but certainly
the Baroque era is.
I would like to think there are still a few who are doing something akin to
"jazz", as it was once *approached* conceptually. It may not have an
upright bass, or a dotted-eight ride pattern in it, but it's still jazz.
Marsalis'
view is that it's got to have those elements (and others) to be "jazz".
>criticism for Wynton also, but at least he's stirred up some controversy
>that's been great for the art form.
He's stirred up controversy that's great for the popularity of the
art form, THAT'S ALL. He's a fantastic player, but I think as far as
contributing
to the form - what's been done? Holdsworth, on the other hand, has liberated
many harmonic constraints, while still maintaining the improvisational jazz
approach. His brother (Branford) has done as much, if not more, simply by
exposing
people to some jazz sounds with Sting.
>> Coltrane didn't worry about
>>sounding like his antecedents, he went about coming up with new things, new
>>sounds.
>
>Any reading of a good biography on Coltrane will tell you he spent a LOT of
>time learning and absorbing the vocabulary of his antecedents, as well as his
He didn't *sound* like his antecedents, did he?
>contemporaries. In fact, due to his highly obsessive/compulsive personal
>nature, you possibly could call it "worrying".
He certainly wasn't "worrying" about his antecedents or contemporaries
when he did "Giant Steps", or a number of other "progressive" pieces.
>Not intended as a flame, but just trying to assert respect where respect is
>due,
Who did I disrespect, Marsalis? I respect his technique, but what of his
music? He is *not* John Coltrane or Miles Davis. I've listened to Marsalis
on occasion, he does his thing real well, BUT... I would much rather hear the
real deal. Heck, he was more fun to listen to back in the Blakey days, when
he didn't "respect" his influences and was going nuts - IMHO.
>From: henrik.lundberg@gnesta.mail.telia.com (Henrik Lundberg)
>Subject: Jazz.
>>almost be like "this is the Holdsworth record where he proves to the
>>critics he can play that style", as opposed to "this is the Holdsworth
>> record where he *shows* the critics he can interpret some classic music
>> with his own style". Important difference, don't you think?
>What makes it this way? Maybe it's so that the old II-V-I-guys just can't
>understand the complex things Allan has done over the years, that is too
>much over the top for them, but end up and reject it cause it has a rockier
>sound. I don't know.
It's the sound, superficially. That's what *I* mean. There would be no
point in
doing something one step closer to an "authentic" sound, other than to
prove that he can. For that matter, if he's to alter what he does to try and
sound more traditional - in order to grab some of that audience - he would be
have been better served to have taken the offers to play with people like Sting,
and compromise that way. It would have been neat to hear him play with
some hard core trad guys, but.... actually, I think it would be better for
him to guest
in some ensemble situation where he literally plays the role of another horn
player - because then hopefully he would be heard by people not intending
perhaps to hear an "electric fusion player".
Now, if he formed a *band* with some of those guys...
>music as if they listen to say , coltrane. They don't even bother to listen
>to the beutiful melodies, the complex harmony over which Allan create these
>melodies, because he's a rocker to them. And a jazz-trumpeter, can't listen
>to rock.. You know!
I know that alot of people that are "jazz musicians" who understand the music
on paper. Now and then there are those who are *really* into MUSIC that
hear it. In fact, I think someone here referred once to some of the "respected"
retro-modern/traditional guys wanting to play with Holdsworth out of respect.
It seems, except for Marsalis, that attitude is inversely proportionate to
the actual
musicallity of the musician. If they don't hear anything there - well,
that's their
loss.
>So what i mean is that if he had done a real swingin cd, maybe just another
>drummer would do it, maybe they couldn't resist to like it.
I don't know. I'm beginning to think that people that listen to music - BECAUSE
THEY LIKE IT - is a rarity. For instance, I'm not sure the people that are
into the retro-modern/traditional thing are in it for much more than "fashion".
How many of these people have Charlie Parker in their collections? I've been
to a few Marsalis shows where the crowd was clapping after the head, thinking
it was a solo (and Marsalis laughing about it). I don't think Holdsworth's
crowd
is any different - there was a time when I saw him and some guy was yelling
"White Line" over and over, and they played it, and about a song later he
starts yelling for it again - he didn't know he had already played it. I think
Allan said something like "oooh, it's been too long since we've played that,
I may not remember it" with a smile on his face - a couple of people laughed,
knowingly, but....
People don't really listen, deeply, in general I think. Unless he made a cd
that
sounded like Joe Pass, they probably wouldn't like it.
>To me, when a drummer plays ding-dinga-ling on the ride, and when the bass
>plays walking, it's jazz. One sort of jazz.
It's may be jazz sound, but it's not jazz playing. But that doesn't
matter, you're
right, what the jazz snob critics want apparently is a jazz *sound*, not jazz
playing.
>Who would believe that Allan shouldn't make it. Would he fall down on the
>floor or breaking his fingers in a try to improvise over those II-V-I:s?
>(yes I know, there isn't just II-V_I:s on this record). Naah, not really!
Well... the stuff on NTS isn't exactly II V's. And yes, there are arrogant
snobs who would say that he couldn't.
>jazz-musicians" won't appriciate it if it doesn't swing. One could say: "So
>what? who cares of what they think, fuck 'em". But I don't.
This is where I'm weird, apparently . I think one should play music for
completely
selfish reasons, and not care at all what people think.
>From: KingsleyD@aol.com
>Thoughts on AH's compositional sense: Listen to Coltrane's "Giant Steps",
>Oliver Nelson's "Blues & The Abstract Truth", and some Aaron Copland (in
>particular, a piece entitled "Quiet City." Also an old Claus Ogerman/Michael
>Brecker record, "Cityscapes." AH's way with modulation and chordal voicings
>isn't as unique as you might think once you listen to some of the things
>Allan listened to himself. It *is* a beautiful and well-thought out
>extension of these ideas, though.
That's the point though, isn't it - to extend, not to mention coagulate,
ideas?
I'm not suggesting he's a "bolt from the blue" - I think *no one* is, Bach,
Coltrane
or whoever. Yeah, City Nights is the head to Giant Steps, but I think he
is adding
to the vocabulary of music, moreso than the retro guys are.
>essentially all bop/pop/rock/funk/blues, AH's rhythms are derived from the
>composition's phrasing. This is pretty contrary to the way most drummers
>approach things - my guess is that this is due largely to the expectations
Good point. But he's also come up with some unique structures as well,
I believe (that are perhaps a byproduct of having odd numbered bars and
across the line phrasing).
Where would you say the voicings/harmonic/rhythmic style of The Un-Merry Go
Round comes from? I've not heard the touted Cityscapes - I can't find it,
although
I think I know what aspects Ogerman has possibly contributed to his style
based on what I have/heard.
]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] Chip McDonald - chip@csra.net [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[
]]]]]]]]] "Try to be reasonable whenever possible" [[[[[[[[[[[
]]I have a web page @: www.csra.net/chip/default.htm[[
]]]HoldsworthFloydKatek.d.SarahninEnyaQueenHendrixMcCartney[[[
]]MarshallIbanezRocktronADA|Atlanta Rhythm City tried to rip me off![[
NivenWGibsonChomskyLarsonRandPythonCleeseR.ScottKubrickGMarx
Hep hep! I'm in Purgatory! / Professional Single Guy
----------
From: gastarit@comm.net
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 96 17:31:48 -0600
Subject: Re:Covington
someone posted....
>
> Hi, I just wanted to clarify my post about Kirk Covington and "jazz"
>feel, since there were a few responses about my post.
> Like I said in my original post, I do enjoy Kirk's playing a lot.
>What I was trying to say was that there are more modern jazz type drummers
>who are furthering the legacy of the jazz tradition. Listen to John
>Scofeild, Bill Frissell, Michael Brecker and you will see what I mean.
The above aren't drummers ! name some jazz drummers to clarify your (valid)
point. When I think of Covington, I think "Power", "Fusion" and so on. I
thought (repeating myself) he did a fine job to elevate the intensity. This
particular outting (NTS) was not condusive to, let's say a....Bill Stewart,
Lewis Nash or Leon Parker who are among the young contemporary
"mainstream/trad"
jazz drummers making their respective marks on the scene. Hey, If the shoe fits
wear it ! I'm sure they didn't pull Covington's name randomly out of a hat.
Some
drummers may have been washed out in the mix or lacked the necessary power, and
notice Covington's effective brush work....
glenn
----------
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 00:05:17 -0500
From: parag chakravarti
>>Subject: I.O.U. (re-release?)
>>
>>Also, I was looking around on the CD connection and noticed these titles:
>>Holdsworth *Allan & Back" Things You See/Sunbird
>>Holdsworth/Beck - Things You See
>>
>>Does anyone have any info on these CDs?
I have had THINGS YOU SEE for many years on vinyl, and was very impressed by
it when I first heard it (still am, but hardly ever listen to it)
It is mostly Allan on accoustic and GB on real piano. Reminds me of the work
of McLoughlin + Corea. Thrilling to hear that AH can play just as fluidly on
Acc. Guitar as electric. Some songs later became IOU songs.
PC
asdf
----------
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 96 09:59:54 PST
From: "Hoard, Chris"
Subject: Reality
> The reality is that NTS is not a "jazz" record anyway. It is
Every now and then there's a posting that is so wacked, I've no choice
by to chime and screech.
Reality is, Gordon Beck is not a jazz musician, Holdsworth can't play
jazz, and "How Deep Is The Ocean" was never considered a jazz
standard. And by the way, I'm so relieved we've now got a Republican
back in the White House.
Certainly each of us is entitled to our own notion of what encompasses
a genre. In the broader, global commonality our cyber-society derives
what might be termed "cultural truths" because some notion of genre is
universally accepted. The above interpretation of NTS falls way
outside this realm. We abuse generalizations to categorize music, but
nonetheless, we can find a common verbal language to describe music.
Some with very rigid interpretations of genre will tell you Miles
Davis stopped making jazz records around 1970, Chick Corea and Joe
Zawinul's were jazz artists turned rock stars.
The fact is, whatever jazz is, since about the beginning of this
century, it has been steadily assimilating at its fringes nearly all
other music--African ethnic, european chamber music, classical, blues,
broadway on up to popular rock. From Joplin and Armstrong on, great
jazz musicians have always been genre-benders and genre-pushers.
Particularly, they know intimately the past history of jazz, and study
the greats. More particularly, they can listen to Miles, Coltrane,
Metheny, Zawinul, Brecker, Reinhardt, Evans, Jarrett, and actually
understand the musical theory that crystalizes the artist's
personality and spirit. And most particularly, despite this, they can
improvise and produce melodic and chordal approaches that is entirely
singular, their own, and apart from the approach of the masters they
appreciate. To me, Holdworth fits this model precisely...
----------
From: Jeff Preston
Subject: The appropriate hardware always helps / etc.
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 12:07:35 -0600
Message-ID: <1364494841-214525199@addimension.com>
Were it not for Chris Hoard's help, I couldn't have
purchased a copy of _Soma_ a couple of years ago (I'll
see if I can dig up that address for re-posting here).
You see, I knew of a place which could *get* it, but
knowing full-well that it would cost a small fortune
*and* that they carried a number of illegitimate A.H.
items, I did not feel inclined to do business with
them (and I'm sure most of you know the establishment
of which I speak). So, even though I could have bought
this on CD for (guessing) $30-40, I opted for Chris'
option, which was to buy it *on vinyl*, for about $9.
The only problem with this was the fact that I had no
turntable, nor did any of my friends (well, *one*
friend had one, but he's been putting off the purchase
of a badly-needed new stylus for years... after all,
like so many of us, he's been replacing most of his old
vinyl favorites with CDs, anyway).
So, after two years, I finally ran across a person
who had a primo turntable, who would consent to my using
it long enough to tape something. Something which, by
all accounts, was going to be somewhat unusual. :)
Well, no animals tried to escape the house, nor did
the neighbors complain or call the police when I gently
lowered the tonearm to this white vinyl treasure. After
all the hype, I decided there was nothing terribly
unusual about this album; Chris had, I believe, made
some Zappaesque comparisons, but these were lost on me.
What I heard can best be described as progressive pop
(the best comparison I can make is to the old Rundgren
band, Utopia), but it was *good* progressive pop, and
I'm sure this will be getting plenty of play 'round
these parts. My only beef with this album is the mix:
Allan's parts (most of which are *furious* soloing)
are generally presented as a tease, and then a huge
synth wash swells up to all but swallow them whole
(case-in-point: "The Grand Pajandrum"). At any rate,
I would put this on the "buy list" if you don't already
have a copy -- especially if you're like me in the
respect that you really get a kick out of hearing
Allan's playing in non-jazz contexts.
Now, onto the commentary:
>From: KingsleyD@aol.com
>Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 09:41:05 -0500
>Subject: Re: Where is one?
[...]
>Thoughts on AH's compositional sense: Listen to Coltrane's "Giant Steps",
>Oliver Nelson's "Blues & The Abstract Truth", and some Aaron Copland (in
>particular, a piece entitled "Quiet City." Also an old Claus Ogerman/Michael
>Brecker record, "Cityscapes." AH's way with modulation and chordal voicings
>isn't as unique as you might think once you listen to some of the things
>Allan listened to himself. It *is* a beautiful and well-thought out
>extension of these ideas, though.
One question I'd like to ask Allan is, "Could you
describe the process that went into deciding which tunes
were going to be on _NTS_?" The primary reason I'd like
to ask that is because of "Cityscapes."
Someone I'd met on the net sent me a mixed-bag tape of
jazz tunes several years ago which had two versions (one
of which being the original) of "Cityscapes" on it -- but
I didn't know that, 'cause I managed to lose the notes
that accompanied the tape. I remember being very excited
to hear this tune, as I thought it had Holdsworth written
all over it. Later on, Lynn Rardin told us (the list)
about _Cityscapes_, and how this was one of Allan's
favorites. I secreted this away in the "must buy" corner
of my mind, and earlier this year, ran across the CD on
sale here in Nashville. Man, was *I* ever surprised when
I heard the title cut, and connected the dots, linking
it to the tune I'd heard on the aforementioned tape!
Wow! So, I wonder why he didn't choose it as a tune for
_NTS_... I think he and Gordon Beck could have made it
their own.
Jeff
----------
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 12:40:28 +0100
From: Calyx/Big Bang
Subject: Looking for...
[I have been asked to pass on this message to any AH fan I knew, and I guess
this is the right place...]
I am very interested in musician/guitarist Allan Holdsworth.
I am looking for early concert/club/pub photos of Allan Holdsworth,
between 1969-80. Does anyone have such photos for trade or sale or,
perhaps, know of a source who could provide such photos? (Photos of
Allan solo or within a group setting)
I have also been told of a book on Allan Holdsworth written by Philippe
Brosse (Collection Analyse, Editions Distingo, 1991, France). Would
anyone happen to know of a source for this particular book or other
books published on Holdsworth?
My mailing address is:
E. Kord
P.O. Box 2001
Hollister, CA 95024
(USA)
[ Moderator's note: Have you looked on the Atavachron Web site?
Steve Hunt has graciously supplied us with a number of photos
which he and others have taken over his years of touring with
Allan; see http://www.addimension.com/atav/hunt/ for details!
Btw, I'll be adding more photos sometime Sunday. --JP ]
----------
End of Atavachron Digest
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Web page: http://www.addimension.com/holdsworth/
Sponsored in part by Carvin
http://www.carvin.com/hldswrth.html
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 23:32:44 -0500
From: owner-atavachron@jabular.webster.com
Apparently-To: atavachron-outgoing@jabular.webster.com
To: JEFF@ADDIMENSION.COM
The New Atavachron Digest 96/11/11
Sender: owner-atavachron@webster.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Jeff Preston
----------
From: lednammurco@earthlink.net
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 13:43:35 -0800
Subject: WORD Games
Since this whole "jazz" debate has turned into a game of sematnics
or an opportunity for people to just try to prove how much jazz triivia they
can drop in the post, I will definintely leave this hot potato alone after
this, but, seeing my original post ripped apart and pulled out of context is
pretty silly, seeing that I am in agreement with most of the people that
have exploded this can of worms. For eaxample:
POST:
"What I was trying to say was that there are more modern jazz type drummers
who are furthering the legacy of the jazz tradition. Listen to John
Scofeild, Bill Frissell, Michael Brecker and you will see what I mean."
REPLY:
"The above aren't drummers !"
Of course they aren't drummers, but seeing almost everyone here is a
guitar player, It is pretty obvious that this refers to modern guitarists
using modern drummers.
There is so much more but I won't waste anymore space by quoting
them. My only question to some of these people is, have you ever played for
a living?? I am not any more happy about labels than the next guy, but you
will find out the hard way, when you play music that does not fit the norm.
and try to make a living doing it. Because of this factor, I do many types
ofmusic besides my own that is called "jazz" (and other styles) to pay my
rent. Like it or not,.....you are going to have to describe your music and
playing to people if you want to stay alive. If they hear distortion, that
is usually enough alone to exclude you from the jazz category.
The real spirit of jazz is what it is about for the players. That is
why I AM in total agreement with these high fueled posts. This spirit
doesn't make a difference, however, to most of the people who make you
money. I admire anyone whos sticks to their guns, and that has always been
my own personal goal. I feel sorry for the poverty that can come along with
new ideas, but if you get out there , you will quickly see what will get
ignored from the jazz category and remain unheard. That does not mean an
artist has to change his whole thing to sell it. For this one and only
album, I think a different rhythm section would have opened up a new
audience for Allan, as it was comprised of msotly standards. So big
deal.......it didn't happen. My main point was to share why this record
might yet again, be discarded by the "jazz snob" populace.... Not to engage
in music trivia with other readers who think my post was "whacked", as one
guy put it before launching into total irrealavancy. Bottom line I enjoy NTS
for what it is, and I hope none of you that I am speaking of, ever try to
make a living the way Allan does, because it is a hard life.
----------
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 19:55:00 -0500 (EST)
From: kwillcox@shore.net (Keating Willcox)
Great list,
regards to Allan at al.
What is Jazz? Well, Jazz can be improvizational music from the african
american background, or it can be improvizational music from a european
background. When someone hears Pat Metheny, Allan, Lyle Mays, Gary Burton,
and some of the major European artists, they can be sure that they are
listening primarily to that latter tradition. If the word Jazz is not large
enough to encompass both traditions, what an irony. Jazz is itself a
derogatory term.
Is Jazz alive? Yes CD's and high fidelity music sources, as well as internet
sites with high fidelity allow access to thousands of bands. Many of these
bands, while not economically viable, are still valid as well as beautiful.
By the way, it is so easy to compose today, and so easy to print music, why
is there no resurgence in music written in a classical or baroque style for
orchestra or for strings? I can't believe how easy it is to publish music,
and how rare it is to find outstanding contemporary composers in these fine
traditions. Yet there is no shortage of superb perfomers for classical music.
Is there a carvin dealer in boston?
Does Allan like any of the new synthaxe replacements?
----------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 08:29:58 -0500
From: king
Subject: I resign
As great a devotee to Alan Holdsworth as I am and have been since the
UK days, I'm going to have to give up trying to make sense out of this
little "conference". There is so much arrogance, testosterone,
ignorance, etc., flying around here that it's tremendously difficult to
find any real love or interest in any of the appends in AH or surrounding
subjects. (By the bye, it IS possible to understand the mechanics of this
music AND love it at the same time...and not just this kind of music,
either. Sometimes a II-V-I progession can be a beautiful thing, ya dig?)
Take heart, guys, I DID hang in there for 2 years+ before I called
it quits. Just remember this note the next time you hear some of
those statistics about the low percentage of women you find surfing
the net.
TK
Professional Musician in first life,
Computer Engineer in second life,
Lover of AH and his music in all lives
----------
From: KRosser414@aol.com
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 11:05:37 -0500
Subject: Re: No Subject
In a message dated 96-11-10 13:49:26 EST, you write:
>>>Who cares what a "serious jazz player" thinks? "Jazz", as defined by
>>>that curmudgeon of antiquity Wynton Marsalis, is dead.
>>
>>By whose standards? Is the music of Bach or Stravinsky dead? The shit's
>>not>>dead if there are still people studying it, playing it, listening to
it,
>>talking about it, arguing over it and being moved by it. I have a lot of
>I'm not saying the *music* of "jazz" is dead, but the *movement* of jazz.
>Given who you cite, it's like saying the music of Bach isn't dead, but
>certainly>the Baroque era is.
Which proves what? The music of Bach is bigger than the Baroque era. Jazz
is bigger than the 50's and 60's, if that's the "movement" or "golden era"
you're citing.
>I would like to think there are still a few who are doing something akin to
>"jazz", as it was once *approached* conceptually. It may not have an
>upright bass, or a dotted-eight ride pattern in it, but it's still jazz.
>Marsalis'>view is that it's got to have those elements (and others) to be
"jazz".
Well, I don't agree with Wynton on that either. And yes, there are a lot of
people moving jazz forward such as Henry Threadgill, Tim Berne, Marty Erlich,
Joe Lovano, Geri Allen. I could go on and on.
>>criticism for Wynton also, but at least he's stirred up some controversy
>>that's been great for the art form.
>
>He's stirred up controversy that's great for the popularity of the
>art form, THAT'S ALL. He's a fantastic player, but I think as far as
>contributing>to the form - what's been done?
Nothing. What I said was that he stirred up discussion among musicians,
educators and critics about what jazz is, the role of the history of the
music, the role of educators within that system, the role of musicians as
educators, etc, and that the resulting (often controversial) discussion
around this has been great for the art form. I think he himself will go down
in history more as an agent provocateur than an instrumental innovator, which
is fine. More power to him.
> Holdsworth, on the other hand, has liberated
>many harmonic constraints,
Say what? Which harmonic constraints? When Holdsworth first came on the
scene in the mid-70's he was playing and writing modal vamps like everyone
else in electric jazz those days. Since then I haven't heard him "liberate"
anything. Educate me: on which track does he liberate a harmonic
constraint?
Not that he needs to, he's still a great guitar player and musician, but
shouldn't we stop somewhere short of crediting him with, say, inventing
electricity?
Don't get me wrong - I'm a fan, or else I wouldn't be here, but a jazz
innovator he ain't. You take Holdsorth out of jazz history and it pretty
much stays the same. Recording a record of standards does not a jazz
innovator make. Not unless you consider Linda Ronstadt an innovative jazz
singer also. I suspect Allan is not particularly worried about being
considered a jazz player, let alone innovator, or dealing with its lineage.
Fine, more power to him.
>>> Coltrane didn't worry about
>>>sounding like his antecedents, he went about coming up with new things,
new
>>>sounds.
>>
>>Any reading of a good biography on Coltrane will tell you he spent a LOT of
>>time learning and absorbing the vocabulary of his antecedents, as well
as>his
>He didn't *sound* like his antecedents, did he?
At one time, yes, he did sound a lot like Sonny Stitt, Dexter Gordon and
Charlie Parker. He even switched from the alto to the tenor to avoid being
too closely compared to Bird.
In the 60's he hung out with Ornette Coleman and Archie Shepp a lot and went
through periods of changing his playing to reflect their influence. Point
is, he assimilated and moved on. A lot of lazy musicians that want to be
considered jazz musicians mistake his resulting originality with avoiding
assimilating anyone's vocabulary at all.
I don't consider Holdsworth a lazy musician, but I do think he comes from and
follows more of a rock aesthetic than a jazz aesthetic, although he's
obviously jazz-influenced.
>>contemporaries. In fact, due to his highly obsessive/compulsive personal
>>nature, you possibly could call it "worrying".
>
>He certainly wasn't "worrying" about his antecedents or contemporaries
>when he did "Giant Steps", or a number of other "progressive" pieces.
"Giant Steps" was a result in many ways of his work with Monk in 1957 and
1958. It was based on a harmonic series he often used in his "sheets of
sound " period and was sort of the culmination of that period as well. It
was an innovation, but it was also directly related to what was happening
with his contemporaries, as was "Ballads", "A Love Supreme", "Ascension",
"Meditations", "The Avant Garde" and "Ellington and Coltrane", to mention
just a few. My point is that he wasn't just flailing away in a cultural
vacuum at whatever he wanted. It was all done with a great deal of
concentration on evolution and movement. That was Coltrane's greatest
contribution to the art. Holdsworth's blowing often has the character of
Coltrane's "sheets of sound" period, but IMHO the similarity ends there.
And yes, I'd much rather listen to Marsalis with Blakey than listen to him
try to rehash Ellington.
A None Too Soon admirer,
Ken R
----------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 09:48:32 -0800
From: Daniel Larsen
Subject: Re: I.O.U.- facts about first lp*
owner-atavachron@jabular.webster.com wrote:
>
> The New Atavachron Digest 96/11/02
< [ Moderator's note: It's printed in gold ink at the bottom of the
> back cover, and I have a scanner to prove it. So, *nyah*. :)
> --JP ]
Sorry to drag this out, but my copy doesn't say that! It only says at
the
bottom of the back cover: Information: (714)544-7424. There is no
printing
on the spine as well. So it would seem that there may have been more
then
one pressing for the first editon of i.o.u. - or at least more than one
record cover.
Bill>>
There actually was "two" pressings of the first I.O.U. album. Allan had
500 copies made for the '81- I.O.U. tour (I have one and was at the S.F.
show) to sell in the clubs and promote it. His manager at the time told
me this as I was purchsing a copy. I'm sure they were sold out by the
second to three show of that tour.
The difference between the two is the first one has a contact address
from England, not U.S. - Daniel7
----------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 13:09:28 -0800 (PST)
From: scsmith@qualcomm.com (Sean Smith)
Subject: Great Web page, None Too Soon, and Live Carvin demo performance
(10/12)...
Hi fellow Alan Holdsworth fans,
First of all, I'd like to tell the webmaster Jeff Preston what a great
Netscape web page he has dedicated to the world's greatest guitarist: Allan
Holdsworth! Jeff, your Web page is one of the best I've ever seen! The new
"Road Frames" addition is great also! Keep up the great work!
[ Moderator's note: Your check's in the mail. ;) --JP ]
I recently picked up the new Allan Holdsworth cd None Too Soon and I'm
pretty happy with it. I especially like the soloing on track 1 (Countdown).
I also think that the title track (pts I and II) are also awesome! Being a
bassist, I was hoping for a little more from Gary Willis, but I guess his
material does fit the new songs well.
Almost a month ago (Sat 10/12) I attended the Carvin signature series
guitar demo at the San Diego Carvin facility. I had my Carvin 6 string LB76
bass custom made there, and when I got thier new product catalogue, I was
blown away that Allan was on the cover and was going to do a live demo!
At the demo, Allan played upstairs to a group of about 50 or 60 people and
he improvised and soloed with the new Carvin signature series guitar (H1)
over some pre-recorded material (keys and drums). He also did a solo
takeoff to the song "Pud Wud" from Sand. Intense demo to say the least! He
also answered questions from the audience. Afterwards, Allan came
downstairs with glossy promo photos and personally autographed one for each
person at the demo! Not only did Allan demonstrate his incredible guitar
skills, he also showed that he's a great guy!
Allan Holdsworth Rules!!!
Sean Smith
Allan Holdsworth fan / bassist
San Diego, CA
----------
From: "Marc Simons"
Subject: WHERE IS ONE out of focus a bit
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 01:00:12 +0100
Kingsley, thanks for your responce:
Note #1) The recording of 'WHERE IS ONE' is brought 'out of >focus' a bit.
You wrote:
On mine, the pitch goes several cents south at the end of AH's solo! I
have
the original vinyl (featuring the "Luna Crack" reference - I purchased said
LP at AH's 1982 Boston show). My turntable's pitch adjustment is enough to
fix it, if I tape it and twiddle the knob on the fly.
Does this occur on the IOU CD as well?
Yep, indeed it does. At the end of the bass solo, Allan + band are picking
up the theme again. (Jeeezzz, it is Jazz!) Then it is brought out of pitch
even more. I have a feel that someone played around with the pitch on the
master recorder or so. (Does someone know?) I think the only one that can
give us an answer is.....take 3 guesses, the first 3 do not count......
Allan.
Also I state that I really do agree your comments about the rhythmic part
of the job. I indeed started as a drummer once and played in a few bands,
you know, not the best ones you can imagine. The only thing that I had to
do is: Drumming! I agree that finding a drummer -and also the bass player
that does not interfear too much with Allan's melodics- might be one of
Allan's biggest headaches. Since I started to wiggle my fingers a bit (on
the bass) I am getting a much better understanding of what is happening
etc. Your experiance with Danny Gottlieb can be explained as follows: Pat
Metheny is much more in the center than Allan. I saw PM about 4 times now.
It is a lot of PM, with Lyle Mays behind him. The rest - sort of - do their
job. With Allan's music I found out the best blending of what I heared
until now: It is not only the 'guitar' that counts. The rest is exactly as
important. There is a balance.
BTW, thanks for your suggestions about Coltrane, etc. I will go and chase
them.
Marcus
----------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 18:18:05 -0800
From: Bruce Bryant
Subject: NTS and such.
Greetings fellow Atavachronists:
While I love ALL of AH's compositions, I hope from time
to time in a very long prolific life AH will find time to
occasionally do projects involving his interpretations of other
peoples works. On NTS, I really love finally hearing him
play over the changes to some of the tunes I've tried to
learn over the years. I also like the stuff he did with Level 42.
Was able to locate NTS easily on the date of release--at a store
less than a mile from my apartment. Curiously, Blockbuster Music
and other large chains didn't have it...
I First heard AH around 1978 on KWMU FM in St. Louis around
1978 on an all night Fusion (don't know if I like that term-
--but that was the name) program--"Fusion 91". It was the
Tony William's Believe it album---the tune "Fred".Later a
musician roommate of mine brought home Velvet Darkness (vinyl)
which was selling for $.99!! BTW--I remember thinking in the back
of my mind Allan might not have control over his works when I
noticed that a clearly inferior version of "Floppy Hat" was used on
the CD release. Had I known then what I know now, I would never
have purchased it. I feel like I ripped him off...
Didn't get to hear AH in person until early April 1986 at a
place called Mississippi Nights. He played stuff from Road
Games, I.O.U., as well as Atavachron. I really feel lucky to
get to hear the Synthaxe now that it seems unlikely he will
ever tour with it again. The entire band was totally
burning! As I recall, I was surpassed that Allan could play
so well while drinking beer. His playing was flawless the
entire evening except one fraction of a second where one of
those chords--which requires quite a bit of stretching---
wasn't executed cleanly and he winced. At one point when
during the keyboardists solo while Allan was resting, he
noticed the crowd--which was largely guitarists--were still
gawking at him with our mouths hanging open and made sort
of a gesture with his glass of beer to pay attention to what
the keyboardist was playing. My girlfriend at the time (should have
left her at home) didn't like the way AH would barely speak or
smile or put on a show the way Pat Metheny does. He returned
I guess in 1988 or 89 playing all the above plus stuff from
'Sand'. He hasn't been back (to the best of my knowledge) since.
Come back to St. Louis Allan!!
Back to lurk mode ...
Bruce Bryant bbryant1@concentric.net
41 year-old Factory Worker Bruce123B@aol.com
Guitar Hobbyist
St. Louis Missouri
----------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 02:38:03 -0500
From: Jens Snoop-Doggy-Johansson
Subject: Stuff
Fellow Atavachron subscribers! De-lurking time, for a quick note..
Regarding "Heavy Machinery". It's not jazz. It's sometimes almost like a
weird odd-meter rap album, but with real drums instead of a drum machine.
And guitar and synth solos instead of the rapping. And.. hmm, never mind. :)
Anyway, the goal was to not make Yet Another Fuzak Record. And the goal was
definitely not to emulate Allan's compositional style. I've heard records
with people that tried, with the predictable result of preferring the real
thing to a blasphemous, pale copy.
If you're a hard-core-jazz-freak-Atavachronista, you should probably beware
and give it a listen before buying. Harmonically the material is a lot
simpler, more unpolished, much more crudely modal, than Allan's material.
It's not a "metal-influenced" record in any way shape or form, however.
There are a few songs that are a bit unusual metrically but nothing really
complicated. (one in 7/4, one in 11/4 and one in 25/8 but lots in 4/4 as
well.) There is nothing I can say about Allan's playing that everyone here
doesn't know already, except that I think I deserve some sort of medal for
having the balls to present my own pathetic (keyboard) noodling right next
to it, for the world to hear! (I can't bear to listen to the record
anymore... I wish I could buy back all the copies out there, smash them up,
redo all the keyboards, and remix it and release it again! But I digress..)
[ Moderator's note: Yeah, this is getting to be old-hat -- Allan
seems to have this obsession with pitiful, lame, inferior players
... *NOT*! Geez, is there an unwritten rule that says that great
players HAVE to be lousy salesmen? I don't see how you -- or Allan,
for that matter -- have anything to apologize for, or make any
excuses for. Sure, modesty is a nice trait -- and I'm sure you,
Jens, can appreciate that more than most of us -- but let's
not delude ourselves: you and Allan are both world-class players,
and it *sucks* for us to hear you guys de-value your own work, no
matter how you might really feel about it. Most of us who play
can only dream of reaching the kinds of heights you guys pull
off every time you step up to bat. So, please... in public, at
least, stand by your work. You really won't come off as arrogant
if you can manage to put it in perspective. Soapbox-mode off. :)
--JP ]
The fellow that complained about the compositions is essentially right --
they _are_ minimalistic arrangements of bass riffs played over grooves, at
times. That was what we aimed for, we wrote the songs in the studio with
keyboard bass and drums, almost whilst the tape was rolling.. to get that
unpolished quality. It sounds pretty much as I imagined it would/should.. so
in my (twisted) mind, I'd have to declare the recording a spectacular success!
Re mixing casualties. Yes, it sounds like the guitar solo level changes a
couple of dB in the third track. Not Allan's fault! As I recall, me and
Anders were arguing about the guitar level when we mixed (I didn't think it
was loud enough), I won the fist fight that ensued, and we decided to adjust
it, but probably forgot to go over the first few seconds of the solo with
the new mix. (we mixed to two digital tracks parallel to the multitrack). I
also might want to clear something else up: there's an (obvious?) edit on
track 2 that makes it appear as if Allan improvizes exactly the same 50 or
so seconds of material, note for note, twice. Not so. This is the same solo,
same section, different mix, crudely spliced in by yours truly.
BTW it just got a good review in Keyboard Magazine too! (December issue)
Regarding complaints about Kirk Covington: stop the insanity. The guy is great.
Then mr. "Chip the Apparently Endlessly Single" writes:
> "Jazz" has nothing to do with a "swinging" ride pattern. It's about an
> improvisational approach to music, taking something and letting personal
> interpretation of the changes mold the music.
[...]
> Who cares what a "serious jazz player" thinks? "Jazz", as defined by
> that curmudgeon of antiquity Wynton Marsalis, is dead. People playing
> music in the 1990's that sounds like music played by musicians in the 50's
> doesn't make it the same thing. That doesn't mean the people that do that
> aren't killer musicians, but just that they're not contributing anything new.
> Jazz used to be something that built on what came before it; it's now being
> reduced to something like a metal cover band. Coltrane didn't worry about
> sounding like his antecedents, he went about coming up with new things, new
> sounds.
Best post I've read in a long time. (hey, Mr. Chip, hopefully you won't be
single forever)
> IMO Holdsworth's music is the *only* thing that deserves the label "jazz"
> these days. It's features the same attributes of Coltrane, Parker, Morton,
> and any other significant jazz artist's music did *while* it was happening:
> novel and inspired improvisation, and *new* harmonic and rhythmic innovation.
> I'm selfish. I don't want to hear a *recreation* of great music, I want to
> hear the *creation* of *new* music.
I agree 130%. 140%!!
Anyway, stop reading this drivel of mine and go out and pick up "None Too
Soon"!
All the best to you all from the road in a very rainy Europe,
Jens. (offline) (http://www.panix.com/~jens/)
----------
End of Atavachron Digest
Send postings to: atavachron@webster.com
Send administrative requests to: atavachron-request@addimension.com
Web page: http://www.addimension.com/holdsworth/
Sponsored in part by Riff Technology, Inc.
http://www.gbase.com/rifftech/
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 19:05:35 -0500
From: owner-atavachron@jabular.webster.com
Apparently-To: atavachron-outgoing@jabular.webster.com
To: JEFF@ADDIMENSION.COM
The New Atavachron Digest 96/11/20
Sender: owner-atavachron@webster.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Jeff Preston
----------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 11:46:42 +0500
From: Paul Psutka
Subject: Cityscape is available
Hi! For those of you who were talking about the Ogernam/Brecker release
"Cityscape". It is available from CD Now and CDconnection. I think it's
about $11 U.S.
----------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 09:13:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Roger Billerey
Subject: Reflections
Hi everyone
It's been a rough 2 weeks for jazz fans around here. One thing I'd like
to stress... Beware, it sounds like a big, super-naive cliche, but I
really believe it's relevant to any discussion about improvised music,
especially "jazz" (and for the sake of clarity I will take jazz as
encompassing everything from Django Reinhardt to Allan, the Marsalis
herd, even Kevin Eubanks, ferchrissakes). My point is that, except for a
few luminaries (Django, Coltrane, Miles, Allan, John McLaughlin, to name
a few), a great many "jazz" players seem to have forgotten about a *VERY*
important idea: before playing any "label" (straight ahead, fusion,
dixieland, you name it), they are supposed to play music first and
foremost, and (at least to me) music is defined by *MELODY* (which
includes rhythm). Sad thing is that most of jazz musicians sound like
very proficient Remingtons, in that they just barf out endless strings of
notes, sometimes in a very complicated fashion as regards rhythm or
harmony, key changes, what have you, but apparently without any
consideration for the melodic aspect of what they "create spontaneously".
Case in point: I went to a Mark Whitfield concert last year (guitar,
drums, acoustic piano, upright bass) and there was absolutely no way to
tell what song he was playing after the "theme" (two to four bars hastily
put together as a pretext for noodling away over some variation on a
II-V-I progression). We were "treated" to 5 minutes of supercharged
soloing, then the theme was stated again, and there he went on to another
"song" which was exactly the same as the one he'd just played and as the
one he would play later. I had the same impression at a Scofield concert
4 years ago. I had this revelation after the Scofield concert, when all
the players picked up their charts from the floor. Not a single melody
was played in 2 hours. No structure. No good. At least as far as I am
concerned.
What I am aiming at is that jazz is more likely to fall into that rut
than any other "style" of music because of its inherent modus operandi,
i.e. its improvised nature. It takes a visionary to keep things melodic
and interesting in jazz, and such people are few and far between. Listen
to Coltrane, Miles, Allan, McLaughlin, Henderson (Scott), Shawn Lane for
those of you who have an open mind (check out his albums with Hellborg),
Metheny (and God knows I'm not a fan of his), and you'll get my point.
Obviously excluded would be Frank Gambale and his "pattern" playing, and
hosts of horn and guitar players. The epitome of the melodic approach to
me would be (these days) Brett Garsed. If you haven't checked him out, DO
IT NOW!!!!!!! I mean, listen to his articulation and phrasing, the guy is
insane!!! The best example IMHO would be his UNBELIEVABLE SOLOS on "So
what" (album "Centrifugal funk" on Legato Recds with Gambale and Lane,
quite unnecessary album if it were not for this solo), "A musical oasis
awaits us" and especially "Punch line" on "Quid pro quo", possibly the
closest thing to "jazz" and the most awesome melodic phrasing this side
of Jupiter (Legato Recds).
So much for today. Sorry for being long-winded, I just felt an urge to
spit out my venom because I'm into music, not exercises in the weirdest
harmonic complexity possible.
Rog the frog
Guitar player (well, sort of)
----------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 18:37:57 +0100
From: Gabriele Bulfon
Subject: The Java Music Viewer
Those of you who were interested in my transcriptions of Allan, and that
own a Java enabled browser, will be able to see them on-line
at my site (http://users.iol.it/gabriele.bulfon).
There you will find The Java Music Viewer with two examples
of what the applet I wrote can do.
By now I am the only person that can do something useful with it,
as I will not distribute the editior until it's really ok.
But when the JMusic editor will be available to you, you will be able
to publish your own transcription on line!
I will update the site with new transcriptions as time permit,
by now you will find "54 Duncan Terrace" and "Holiday Insane"
not complete. They are just a preview.
I was very excited in these last days: I want you to know that
the main reason I started the JMusic project, is because I
wanted to share my work with you (...and I would really die when I think
that even Allan himself, could look at my transcriptions of his music!).
Now I'm here to wait for your responses (I worked hard on it!).
I would be very pleased to receive your suggestions.
Thanks and enjoy my little baby at http://users.iol.it/gabriele.bulfon
Gabry.
http://users.iol.it/gabriele.bulfon
mailto:gabriele.bulfon@iol.it
----------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 10:01:50 -0800
From: Chris Manuel
Subject: Resignation from Atavachron
king-person,
Sorry to hear that you're unhappy with Atavachron. However, your note
was a little offensive. Can I offer a couple of suggestions?
1) If the listserv doesn't meet your needs, then express those needs to
Jeff (the moderator) or to the list itself. It would be a shame to lose
anyone who loves AH's music.
I find many of the internet groups and listservs as frustrating as your
experience with Atavachron. There are times when you just have to give
up on them; sometimes the participants are just too different. I hope
this isn't the case here.
2) Unsubscribe.
In the second instance I don't feel it does any good to resort to
name-calling: "There is so much arrogance, testosterone,
ignorance, etc., flying around here ..." I interpret the testosterone
reference as male-bashing. Was that your intent? If you see ignorance
then correct it, otherwise save the accusations.
I sent a similar post to a newsgroup once - upon seeing it posted I felt
a little silly: "I'm going to quit and you're going to miss me when I'm
gone." Noone really cares if I quit - especially if I attack those left.
"Take heart, guys, I DID hang in there for 2 years+ before I called
it quits. Just remember this note the next time you hear some of
those statistics about the low percentage of women you find surfing
the net."
Drawing attention to your gender and the previous "testosterone" comment
is more divisive than the average Atavachron post in achieving equal
gender access to the internet. When you attack people that way you're
not going to promote understanding, you're just going to put people on
the defensive. My initial reaction, filtered here, is that if whining
and name calling is going to be the feminine contribution to net life
then perhaps things are already as they should be (that low percentage
you refer to).
I don't believe women should be under represented on the net but some
people won't be missed :-)
--
Chris Manuel
Windswept Media
cpmanuel@islandnet.com
250.382.5811
http://www.islandnet.com/~cpmanuel/
----------
From: WDCKdarin@aol.com
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 17:51:44 -0500
Subject: AH and BC?
Hello atavachroners,
Some stuff:
Recently, at a Billy Cobham drum clinic, someone asked Billy about rumors
that Allan Holdsworth was working with him on a new project. Well, Billy said
he had heard this before but it was not true (too bad; what a powerhouse
combo that would be!). But, he did say that he(BC) and GARY HUSBAND will be
working together on something! (wow!). Something to look foward to.
DG
[ Moderator's note: Gary has been touring with Billy for almost two
years, I believe; he plays keyboards, mostly, with drums and
percussion being a secondary role in Cobham's band. --JP ]
----------
From: "BARBAROTTA"
Subject: Re:
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 20:04:32 -0800
blah blah blah. all this talk about what is or isn't jazz! call it what you
will- like it or dislike it- listen or don't listen. C'mon, who cares if
someone calls NTS jazz or fusion or fuzak or anything. the real bottom
line is- do you enjoy listening to it? musicians make music for themselves
only. it's purely by accident if anyone else likes it. that's the way it
should remain forever. Bassfully yours, JBass, the Rickenbacker slut.
----------
From: TanVil@aol.com
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 01:24:42 -0500
Subject: I met the man!
Greetings fellow Atavachronistas! I just saw Allan do a clinic in Santa Ana
and boy was I impressed! It goes without saying that his playing was great
but what impressed me the most was his humility and graciousness. I will
never forget that. He played new compositions he was working on and they
sounded fantastic. The crowd was quite diverse which I found very
interesting. Allan was questioned on what he thought of many different
guitarists and he praised them all. Here is a man who is a true leader in
his vocation and he displayed such graciousness and humility. I believe this
is one of the reasons he IS so great. We can all learn even more from his
character than his playing I believe.
Patrick Teasley
----------
From: R.J.Heath@lboro.ac.uk (Richard Heath)
Subject: Mojo Competition
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 19:13:51 +0000
Surprise, surprise. The results for the MOJO guitarist competition are just
out. Allan didn't get a mention in any form. The only form of "jazz" to get
into the winner's enclosure were two tracks from Larry Carlton's back
catalogue ........ I don't think any of the amateur reviewers who got
reviews into print were in any way startling innovators of the genre.
So a brief post mortum. How many of us entered this competition, the prizes
weren't that bad - I know of me and one other? How many of us really cared
to put word-processor to paper - let's face it MOJO is a relatively obscure
Brit pop/rock magazine (isn't it?), so what relevance to the world as a
whole doe it have? But I feel that we as fans should have taken this and
other opportunities to plug the maestro and inform/turn-on potential new
fans. We just can't talk to each other - the converted - all the time.
Anybody heard the new Susan Weinert Band album on VERABRA, (about 4 months
old now)? First play suggests this German lady has been listening to AH,
even though some tracks hint (to my uncultured ear) of a hybrid of
Holdsworth and Metheny. Comments please.
What has happened to the promised albums from Eddie Jobson, the son of Soma
(Nevermore?), John Wetton and the rest with AH possibly guesting? Will they
make it tothe UK, (country not band)?
Dick Heath
----------
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 00:43:57 +0100
From: henrik.lundberg@gnesta.mail.telia.com (Henrik Lundberg)
Subject: End of jazz-discussion
I'm sorry but i can't leave the jazz-debate yet.
mr. "Chip the Apparently Endlessly Single" writes:
>> IMO Holdsworth's music is the *only* thing that deserves the label "jazz"
>> these days. It's features the same attributes of Coltrane, Parker, Morton,
>> and any other significant jazz artist's music did *while* it was happening:
>> novel and inspired improvisation, and *new* harmonic and rhythmic innovation.
>> I'm selfish. I don't want to hear a *recreation* of great music, I want to
>> hear the *creation* of *new* music.
then Jens Snoop-Doggy-Johansson wrote:
>I agree 130%. 140%!!
Yeah, but hey, am I the only person on this list who cares about if it
swings or not. Regarding to "None too soon" I wonder if Allan cares. I
believie he does, but maybe he couldn't say "no" to Gary Willis on his
drummer-choice, "I want a drummer that swings".
I have said this before: I like Kirk Covington in the Scott Henderson
context, but in this "None too soon"-context I don't (Imagine Gary Novak
and Gary Willis together....). "None too soon" is a record wich I
categorize as jazz. It's good, but it doesn't swing.
I have a record that has been mentioned earlier in this list. Its'a single
CD of the two LP:s Allan did with Gordon Beck, The Things You See (1980)
and Sunbird (1979) which features: AH - guitars, violin, vocals; GB -
keyboards; Jean Francois Jenny-Clark - bass; Aldo Romano - drums,
percussion.
The last two songs swings like hell and are really cool. But it's not
*creation* of *new* music niether *recreation* of great music. It's just
jazz. I relly recommend it , even if I only listen two the two last tracks.
End of the "None too soon"-jazz-discussion. (i believe)
Keep it up!
-Henrik
----------
From: KRosser414@aol.com
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:10:58 -0500
Subject: Re: No Subject
In a message dated 96-10-31 23:04:53 EST, you write:
>In response to Ken Rosser: It is totally impossible to design a guitar to
>suit all purposes and this was not in my mind for this guitar. It is simply
>a guitar made for me, with all the things that I like - large, half a
>baseball bat neck, and high frets. I dislike skinny little necks with low
>frets. Plus it has also been my experience that the neck is very important
>with regard to the sound of the guitar. When I was working and
experimenting
>with Grover Jackson at Charvel, it was determined that, in my opinion, the
>same guitar with a large neck on it always sounded better.
I want to clarify that what I said was the guitar was obviously well-made but
the neck was not to my taste. Maybe I should have been more specific about
liking low frets myself - anyway, a few people posted off list to ask for
specifics and I did detail what I found personally uncomfortable about the
neck, as well as many of the things I did like about it. The problem here is
that the opportunities for many to go and try one out first are pretty
scarce, so I was just trying to share a little subjective judgement. If a
player does like fat necks and high frets, it would be hard for me to imagine
a better sounding, more comfortable and more affordable guitar.
Ken R
----------
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